+Vote and XP Pools

Has there been any discussion yet on what, if anything, will be done regarding the current XP rollover pool system as well as the current +vote system?

Yes.

When the new launch goes live, we will start on a level playing-field. Some time in the near future (but not for a couple of days; let's hash out the issues several at a time, so we can work things out systematically), I will post a poll, asking players to weigh in and determine whether we should have a total reset or some nominal carry-over of 10% of current XP or so.

In the future, players will not get 100% of spent XP back after death, and will not get nearly so much back each week. Death needs to be merciful enough that players don't work so hard to avoid it that they weaken the RP; but it also needs to degrade power level enough that the average level doesn't constantly trend up, up, up and away, further and further out of newbie reach.

We may also conduct a poll and extensive math-testing to figure out what kind of XP return -- if any -- discourages throwaway characters but encourages a willingness to die when it's ICly appropriate.

If there is no return what so ever IMO it will make peopled obsessed with avoiding death. And I support the 10% of what we have bonus at the start, it's enough to acknowledge those who have been with the game from the old days but not enough to massively overpower anyone.

I don't know, I think if you provide a return of XP on death and provide chars an XP return from DH1, then you are just continuing the issues. DH2 has a new stat system, starting fresh seems like a good idea. Fresh chars, fresh stats. On the issue of death, I do think that having some return from death isn't necessarily a bad idea....though the returns on DH1 are the most generous of any game I've seen and I think a drastic reduction is necessary.

For the record, I personally favor a total clean slate going into the relaunch, but I am willing to go with whatever the general consensus among the players is. I guess I will probably start a poll thread for people to weigh in and give their reasons.

I am in favor of a level playing field too, but that does not rule out including a cross the board benefit for returning players.

With slower advancement of levels, letting veterans start with more isn't as much of an advantage, especially since it increases the xp needed before they get their next level.

We're also getting in ground floor on filling positions that we hope will be choice in another six months to a year when we're continuing to grow with new players.

I think that something should be shown to those that are returning. Some bonus. We are loosing the characters we have come to put a lot of time in and the skills earned in one fell swoop and the only fault of the players is that they just played the game as it was outlined to us in the rules and game play.

I am also against the current die pool and the incredible rate to get back to level uber. I believe the way it is now it promotes throw away characters...want to go kill someone, +die, wait a month, be back to level 30, kill the player...repeat...that isn't much fun for the players that want to play the characters out, not everyone has the mindset to just toss it all daily, weekly, monthly. They want a story that MUSHs provide. MUDs are good for throw away players.

Good points have been raised on both sides so far. I'll be watching this thread closely as the discussion plays out.

One thing I'd like to hear more on: Stalker1, the wording of your post seems to suggest some possible option 3, rather than total reset of characters or a small carry-over. Obviously any such option would still need to 1) keep it pretty easy for newbies to "break in" and 2) level the playing field among existing players.

What sort of alternative option do you see?

With out knowing what is coming in terms of what characters are going to be able to do, what the skills look like, what the rate to grow a character nor what is wanted by Staff as it relates to the game play I really don't know what to suggest as a good way to go.

I am not fully convinced that oldbies should be on the same level as newbies. Oldbies should be providing (speaking only ICly here) guidence to the newbie. Helping them get footing, getting set up as a character. I know I have bought well over 25+ shuttles for the new player, given them weapons many many weapons and armor and what have you, given them sanctuary and gave them rooms to earn income. Stood up for them when other more powerful characters went after them. (again all IC actions).

I look at another game that I just started with, my character latched onto a very powerful and very well established player, he has done pretty much what I just said I do. This is what an apprentice does, learns from an established mentor, earns his stripes and lives long enough to make a difference.

I think some middle ground would be great between the oldbies and what is envisioned with the new game. Folks are loosing (yes, it's just words in some code but that is what it feels like) a character that they wanted.

A middle ground with what Staff is trying to achieve with the new game and recognition that the oldbies that have stuck it out through thick and thin are more than willing to help the transition with much better attitudes when a bone is tossed their way. It also gives the game established characters that can snag the newbie into their group, outfit them, guide then, protect them and then set them loose to go conquer the galaxy.

Again, with no knowledge of where the new game is going, other than what is posted here, no idea what the rate to increase will be, nor what the skills that a player can have or how to get them I really find it hard to offer a better suggestion.

I am against giving XP to any players from DH1 and I am against giving any XP for death.

Perhaps... a 10% transfer of XP on death. Enough to get you a little started. But I'd rather have it be a fixed point. If you die at level 40 vs level 10? Same +100 XP type of deal.

The reason is simple: The point of DH2 is the stories your characters will be participating in. The character earns XP, in our system, via +votes. These votes represent learning things and applying them to skills. You as a player are not earning XP. Your character is. It could be argued that it is a pretty big breach of IC and OOC crossover to transfer XP between characters!

As for death... Some of you may die. Some of you may die quite often. It will be a significant event. It should be traumatizing to some degree. You should be sad, heartbroken, and proud at the same time. Some deaths may be letdowns. But it is my hope that most deaths will be for a purpose. So if your deaths have served a purpose, then you should be happy.

I have confidence that this sort of worry will fall by the wayside. Instead, people will be worrying about how the Republic's SpecOps team managed to destroy the ENTIRE factory for the walker units! And how they're going to shift blame to a subordinate so the Sith Prince doesn't lightsaber their head off! Or concerned at the increasing skirmishes in sector E7... are the Sith closing in on the secret refueling station? Should we move our base now at great cost and risk? Or what?

Story. Not stuff.

Absolutes in either extreme never work. SWDH had lots of stuff and little story. Another game that has been around for many years has lots of story, but little else. The end results are pretty much the same...

Balance is the key and in a Star Wars setting there is stuff. Lots of stuff. Armor, weapons, vehicles, ships, droids, repair parts, fuel, tools - all of which enriches the player's experience if done right and the player can effectively (or have a path to grow) use this stuff the player's experience is enriched and they have something to stick around and work for along with the enjoyment of the RP. But it has to be balanced.

If only NPCs have "the stuff" and dole it out to those that they deem worthy, folks that are not deemed worthy will get discourged, they leave. Then you have the issue: is the person behind the NPC playing favorites, they only give it to player A to use, not player B cause they like or favor player A? I don't know about anyone else, I would rather RP getting a blaster from a player I can build some kind of relationship with than some nameless ever changing NPC or coded vendor.

If there are no IC mentors (mentors meaning elder IC characters to RP with) for the new kid that comes from the evaporator farm to follow, to learn from, they are thrust into a world of sink or swim...if they are left to sink, the person behind the character will get discouraged and go find a new game to play in.

Also in a very very short time folks will know how to play with in the game, with out the elder character the newbie that walks in can very well be left hanging to either sink or swim and when they sink they will leave and take that experience with them and tell others all about it. Then you start loosing the new players which is the life blood of any game.

All games, be they board games, or electronic games or MUSHs have to have a fair and equal balance else those players that are disenfranchised will just leave and find games where they are not left out or told they have to play to the desires of others.

Ideals are great to have, they are what we strive for, but there is also reality. Folks may want other players to play a certain way but in the case of MUSHs the person behind the character has the real say how their character will play and act. If they don't want to be involved in Space Combat...no matter how great it is coded or how pretty it is they won't play in it - as an example. The tighter restrictions imposed on what a player can play or how to play just narrows down the player base for that game. That's reality.

The best games have this balance, that is what makes some games so successful.

Well, the opportunity for old players to get first shot at positions (due to the ground floor effect) is not nothing, but hrm, if there is a wealth of feeling that a reward must come, then so be it. I woul say a non-XP reward, but I have a feeling that new chars would find some 'special' item or what not pretty annoying. If we do death return by XP, we could always give them levels but not boost their 'XP spent' stat, so they get this bonus level(s) but only for their first chars.

On the issue of death, a flat rate doesn't really appeal, it is too far in the other direction. You are encouraging throw away chars for people to just keep going after people and going to make old chars hole up. The idea of a percentage is, to me, a far better system. It provies quite a lot of tweaking power. 10% is a good number (One XP for every ten spent) especially if combined with an increasing amount of XP required per level, it will mean players can get an ok level boost but that newbies will still be chomping at their heels like pacman.

Both good points made. However they are made under the assumption that NPCs or Staff or the like are going to be mindless in anything. Or that they will only be bestowing "rewards" onto their friends.

DH2 is a different beast from DH1. In DH1, as you put it, you were able to "figure out the game" and do what had to be done to earn riches or earn power. This specific type of "figuring out" is going to be radically different.

DH2 is a game made by gulp. As such, it will have TONS of stuff. Go check out all the ships he's planning. Those are just the ships in space! He hasn't touched on personal weapons and the like. Nor are there any plans to eliminate the flamers, sniper rifles, etc that people are used to.

But the focus of people's existence is not going to be Stuff as it is now. DH1 is powered by how much stuff you have. Your +control list is your power. But it got out of hand to the point where individuals from all walks of life were playing Emperor with tens of thousands of troops or huge fleets and because of this extreme focus on "what you had" instead of "what you did" it made those people who wanted to "do" stuff find it very hard to go against people who "had" stuff.

As I've said before, and as I'll continue to say, we want DH2 to be about the story. How many of you have seen a bomb go off (even months ago) on DH1 and no one does anything about it. Like, no one really cares. This is because DH1 isn't set up with staff able to "bring the world alive." The demographic system is a system. You got to use commands to set yourself up how you wanted. That type of behavior is going to change. You want to be beloved? Keep making your rally-speeches, fine. Some people are going to LOVE you for that. But others are going to say "Where's the beef?" and demand to see some action before they revere you.

Again people worry about bias, etc., sneaking in. That's a valid concern but one that I think staff is trying very hard to avoid on DH2. Staff is being very open and very honest about past failings. Being open and honest doesn't mean there will be no failures of the same kind. But I hope it encourages people.

I know there are a lot of differing opinions on this matter. I'm certain some would rather get 100% of the XP they have now, others would like 0%, and some a compromise of X%. Here's my thoughts.

As a newish player starting from November of 2008 I have to say it became very discouraging to be unable to accomplish anything, even self-preservation, against well entrenched older players. One of the worst scenes involved a suprise attack where my character was immediately incapicated, thereby locking me out of more than just a single pose for the rest of the scene. Not really a great way to encourage RP.

Another time I ran a scene for a group. One player was very new and was trying very hard to be heroic but the code would not support their efforts because their rolls kept failing. The new player became very discouraged. Meanwhile a lot of others in the scene were doing impressively, rubbing salt into the wound.

Consequently it would be nice to put everyone back at the same level again. On the other hand there are people who have been with us for several years. Shouldn't they get something for their efforts?

Having survived several MUSH situations of theme rollover, one thing staff have done is grant special points in exchange for XP earned. Special points are bascially reward points for little extra goodies as a way of saying thank you for playing. Special points could be spent on things like a restricted race, extra starting equipment, a staff plot using the PC's background, etc. Special points could also be granted as another way of adressing roll over with character death, which currently has its own pile of problems.

This is a very interesting suggestion, Haibane. Some sort of special-points system could potentially level things out while still preserving a sense of accomplishment. I'd be interested in hearing further opinions along those lines. What are the possible pros and cons of this approach instead of an experience percentage?

Pros:

* Provide a reward system indepedant of affecting overall levels.
* Another system for character rollover.
* Players feel special outside of what their stats read.

Cons:

* Improperly established rewards might unbalance game (granting a lightsaber to a player in a game where few or no other sabers exist)
* Special PC focused plots could consume large amounts of staff time.
* Insufficient points or poor rewards choices for character rollover would encourage players to avoid death.

A couple things in reply to Haibane.

First: Those cons aren't very conny. I mean, yes they are cons. But I think it's pretty obvious that we wouldn't give Lightsabers out willy nilly. And any reward you do get will be more... ethereal than that.

I am a proponent of these "Special Points" which are rewarded for things outside of pure RP. And I'm also of the mind that they are a GREAT way to know how to spend staff resources. If they can buy you a PC-focused plot, for example, well don't you deserve it if you have these special points?

Also: It's not like they're going to be demand points. You can't just say "I BUY TOTAL STAFF LOVING RIGHT NOW! DROP ALL ELSE!" You can get a TP, but it's going to take time to set up and you'll have to wait.

Lastly: I see nothing wrong with wanting to avoid death. That's good. But if a player avoids risk? That's fine... but the Commander of Rogue Squadron is going to be taking risks. If you're not the type, don't complain when someone else, with maybe less experience, gets that coveted position (and goes on to destroy a major sith outpost!)

I'd hate to be overly suspicious, but can we make certain that some sort of staff discretion point award system doesnt turn into rampant abuse and favoritism?

The only thing that we can do and will do is outline when such points will be awarded (if such a system is implemented) and what values they will be awarded in and under what circumstances they can be taken away.

If you implement the policy this way, whether it's public or private policy (though I don't see any downside to making it public) you have a way to watch for such things.

Let me settle staff favoritism now, so you and everyone else can rest assured: The Staff of DH2 will be doing everything they can to put to open and visible policy as much as they can. There may be cracks here and there, and staff may like some players more than others... but it will not be abused or turn into "favoritism."

The complaints most people have about DH1 starting out being all of Gulp's friends is right. He recruited people to play there out of people he knew. For months he just had his friends on there, and family. He didn't ask them to restart or reset or anything... maybe that was a mistake. But that's what happened. You all are going to have the same "advantage" in starting on DH2. But we are working on making DH2 into a better game so it's not such an advantage. You _will_ be better than a newbie in 6 months time. That newbie WILL kinda get amazed by you as you show off your shoulder bars that put you in command of his company. But you're not going to be in charge of the entire Republic Fleet. Give that a couple years.

I want to outline two players... and outline how Storytellers will behave to them:

You are taking part in a GMed TP. So far things are going okay, you've managed to infiltrate the Sith City's Government Building and your slicer just extracted the shipment schedule for ALL fleet fueling! It's time to leave.

On your way out, your rolls start failing. You're stealth advantage is out the window. The entire building is blaring in alarm, troopers are rushing to battle stations, and you just overhead a comsys message to the Sith that the Forsaken is dropping to low orbit! You can't get open the blast doors...

So you start going crazy! You try to blast open the walls, or send the slicer and the data through the crawlways while you stay behind. You jump some guards and try to disguise yourselves even though you have no disguise skills (You tell the Storyteller that you want to use your intimidation and command skills to bluster your way through.) You want to detonate your blaster ammo to create a distraction! Oh! You want to shoot the fire retardant pipes to fill the hallway leading to the checkpoint with foam!

And in the end you fail your roles, still. Pretty badly.

Now for the other player:

You can't open the door. So you complain that it shouldn't use your slicer skill, or the difficulty is too high. Your poses are now short and you complain OOCly about failing rolls that you've made before. You ask what to do next, you ask why you can't get through or try to open the door again after being told it's locked itself down.

Those are two extreme examples, of course. But I've GMed for many years and I've seen MUCH worse than the second one. I've seen players storm off the table because they weren't allowed to make extra rolls.

The Storytellers are going to be biased and show favoritism to the first type of player. That's not to say they will give the second player harder rolls, or anything like that. But even a failure for the first player might lead to something more positive than a failure for the second player. Because Storytellers want to reward good RP and good story. You fail your athletics roll to sneak through the vents? Do you get caught? Sure, we COULD... or we could dump you into the garbage smasher.

Be suspicious, fine. Be paranoid, fine. But please note that DH2 is a different game than DH1. Instead of being prepared for staff to screw you over or boost their friends, I'd like to see you be prepared for staff to give you an amazing time and start coming up with the most clever ideas you can think of and the neat little twists and secrets in your character background that might make the Storyteller's stories ALL the more meaningful.

See there? That's the type of stuff I'd have "special points" apply to. Getting a useful secret. Like a contact with the smugglers. Or your best childhood friend is a Slicer. These are things that have no +command attached to them. They aren't weapons or armor or credits or XP... but in the course of your adventures you will find that you can use them... and they might get used against you. Your slicer buddy gets you the access codes you needed... but gets caught a few weeks later! Will you repay him and go and rescue your friend? Or will you leave him out? What if you're ordered to do the opposite of what you want to do? Moral quandary!

Not to beat a dead horse, but the thread "Question - Staffing in General" tended to show that there is a fair amount of mistrust by players.

To keep saying that it will be different, that it won't happen - honestly trust us - in just about every post doesn't really alleviate the concerns that players have. That is why players from across the game have stressed a concern with this, many are worried about it.

Gulp did a lot when asked for specifics and I do thank him for that. Folks now know where he stands and what is planned to be implemented.

Folks have that concern, that is pretty well understood. It's easy to earn trust, it is easy to loose trust but then it is very hard to earn it back once lost. Just saying that things will change doesn't erase the concerns.

Just my honest opinion.

The horse is dead.

Staff is very well aware of the issue. I believe that Gulp, Tah, and T all stated that mistakes were made and they are aware of that and are doing a lot of planning and policy to ensure that they won't happen again. I've stated that a lot of policies will be implemented.

You seem to keep WANTING reassurance because you keep asking about it. I will keep giving it. I'm trying, certainly, to show that this is going to be different. If you have different ideas of what's needed... please remember that there is a LOT of stuff we're writing up.

Theme documents for planets, ship design docs, I've got a pile of empty templates for all sorts of actions for both Storytellers AND Players (like speeder races.)

The question has been raised several time about the trust issue. It's been answered each time. Is there anything else we can do to actually reassure you enough for you to give it a go in a positive light?

Actually, I didn't raise the issue here, someone else did.

There is really no need to start on an angryfest and subtly calling out those that have posted concerns here.

The reason the trust issue is brought up so much...well, perhaps a better way to word it: I think perhaps the fact that it is brought up so often, in whatever form of a question it happens to take, is perhaps a good bit of evidence that this is a major concern that our playerbase has. All of these new changes to make staff more efficient, fair, etc. are great, and a step in the right direction, but they are in effect just that -- saying it.

Us as players won't see for sure the benefit or not-so-benefiting features of such changes until the game actually /gets/ here. What we will need to see to be certain is action, not words.

But I think that a good number of us have enough faith and trust in the wizards on their word, that we are willing to sink our teeth in like terriers (or, perhaps, the tiger over to the left with the big-as-heck tree in its mouth ) and hang on to the game until the big changes get here. And we can see first hand these things in action. But berating players for asking simple questions they are concerned over just digs the hole that is already there deeper. We don't need a hole like that dug deeper, we need to start filling that in. And that will only be done by all of us, players and staff and everyone, working together as adults.

I really wasn't berating anyone for bringing it up. But I'm not sure what else we can do to respond to the same issue. If, as you and others have said, the issue has been brought up and has been responded to well enough (at least, as well as staff can by "saying it") then perhaps it's time to let it lie.

Ever consider that staff enjoys hearing positive feedback on the stuff they say? And that starting a MUSH over is a huge risk that might spoil the entire thing and have no one play it anymore?

It's not an easy thing that Gulp decided to do, and I'm just a friend of his trying to see it work out better this time around.

I certainly wasn't saying people shouldn't be upset about stuff that happened in the past. But the BIG positive is that most of the complaints are from a time in the relatively distant past. They're not something that is happening day to day.

And I can assure everyone that we're not restarting to DH2 just so we can put friends back on the top and have a friends-only MUSH. The goal is to be much bigger than we are now or ever were at our peak.

It doesn't matter if these things don't happen day-to-day. Even if they only happen on occasion, that doesn't mean they just simply disappear.

Players have long memories, and without players to bring rooms of text and ansi to life for a simulated reality, there isn't a game present. And I don't believe most of the complaints are from the relatively distant past. They are still present in player's minds and affect how we percieve the game and our play in it.

Without players, there is no game, so there has to be an earned level of trust between players and staff. But again, you cannot have a game without staff as well, and players have to earn the trust of staff as well (and vice versa with staff earning the trust of players).

It's a delicate balance, and one that need to be considered all the time. So even if something of concern isn't happening often, it is still something that need to be addressed, no matter how small.

As far as giving staff positive feedback, in the past I've done my best to thank those on staff I have worked with graciously for their help. But I have run into my share of bad situations as well. A feedback system so that interactions and impresses can be monitered and tracked like was suggested in another thread (I'm not sure which, and too lazy to look back right now ) will help greatly with this, I think. There is a feeling of a huge gap between interaction between the tiers of game at the moment (at least from where I am sitting, I can't speak for others), players, staff, and wizards included.

But all of this and changes to help make such things better have already be mentioned in another thread, and I'm getting sorely off topic, and I apologize for that.