Limit Break Mechanics

An idea floated in another thread suggested "limit breaks" -- as a combat proceeds, the combatants progressively build advantage in a sort of "limit gauge"; there might be relatively few successful hits for the first 6 or 8 or 10 or 12 rounds of a fight, though both combatants can see one fighter or the other gradually gaining the upper hand, but then -- at the end -- wham wham, one combatant shatters the other with a finishing blow or shot.

So, what I'd like to see, is actual proposed mechanics for carrying this out. Simple but rugged is good; it makes it a bit easier for me to code.

Here's a very simple example off the top of my head: Everyone starts a combat with a limit level of 100. As you fight, near-misses that would otherwise hit you instead reduce your limit level (it "buys dodges").

Very solid would-be hits may still hit; let's say that at limit 100, a successful hit has a 66% chance of missing you instead, and if it misses, reduces your limit by a random value between 10 and 25. Similarly, a "natural miss" would reduce the attacker's limit by a random value between 10 and 25 or so.

When your limit hits 0, your opponent will automatically hit you for a "finishing move" which will often end the fight. Performing a "finishing move" on someone else partially refreshes your limit, so that exhausted fighters are not defenseless.

Limit gradually rebuilds as time passes; someone at limit 10 would reach limit 100 again within 2-3 hours online, and limit would automatically refresh at the end of the day anyway.

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An obvious flaw with this mechanic is that someone facing several opponents is going to have his limit depleted extra fast. On the other hand, if he scores plenty of natural misses, they will lose limit faster than he does, so it might balance out.

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I'm looking for systems similar to the one I just described, but fully thought out and designed for ruggedness, ease of implementation on a CS similar to the one we have, and cinematic combat effects.

What, in a sentence or two, is the goal here? It seems like we already have a system for this, where high level characters with plenty of skill beat up people who aren't as skilled. As it should be, of course.

I'm just not sure what you're trying to accomplish.

The goal is to prevent uncinematic combat sequences where you get shot in the face on the first round; I think it's also to increase lethality, so you don't get shot in the face six times before falling unconscious. The goal is to make it so that combat naturally builds up to a dramatic, climactic moment. Etc.

Not that I'm arguing against it, but it seems the system would result in people being more able to flee?

People would be more able to flee, but we'll have pursuit rules to allow +escape-less fleeing and pursuit, so you could have Vader chasing Luke all over Cloud City before Vader finally hits the limit break. Rather than taking Luke down in round two, he chases him around, throws stuff at him, leaps out of the shadows at him, and finally duels him out onto a bridge and hacks his hand off.

** Warning: I'm making some assumptions about the current combat code that I do not know exist or not. But, in order to put together some mechanics on this I sort of need to make a few assumptions. All assumptions will be italicized **

New Statistic:

Limit Break Resist ====================

The Limit Break statistic measures the players resistance to incurring high powered life threatening hits. The lower your resistance, the greater the chance of a Limit Break attack hitting. What is a Limit Break attack? It is the game ender, it is the strike that takes you out of combat (And might even remove your hand!)

(Why Resistance? If the limit is a build /up/ to using a limit break, then in theory I could go duel chucko in the next room over to build up my limit level walk next door and go one shot 'POW' giggle and walk off. Exactly what we're trying to avoid. Rather, as the limit resistance wears down with fighting, the more vulnerable the fighters become to slipping up and allowing that big hit to tear them up.)

The Limit Break statistic is modified in the following ways during combat:

Attacking - If you attack another player or combat approved unit you risk the chance of opening yourself up to counter attack. The more powerful your attack, the greater the opening you present. Every attack lowers your Limit Break resistance.

Defending - Every defense, dodge, parry, quickshot and guard of another player wears you down and exposes your potential weaknesses to the enemy. As your defend your Limit Break resistance lowers. The more strenuous you have to defend, or the more opponents attacking you, the more quickly your Limit Break will drop.

Getting Hit - Regular shots and hits will still occur from time to time. A blaster singing the shoulder a lightsaber grazing the arm. These hits severely reduce your resistance as they tire you out more fully.

Recovering Limit Resistance - Out of Combat status will recover your resistance. If there is a major battle going on and you are able to step back and catch your breath, you will see your resistance begin to increase upwards over time. The less heavily armored you are, the less weight you are carrying the quicker you can recover. However, going around in street clothes fighting runs the risk of getting hit by non-critical shots and will lower your Resistance more rapidly.

So how does it all work out? Let's look at a potential simulated combat between Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker. Note, this system will apply to /all/ combat, not just lightsabers and we'll see how Han and Boba Fett fight in just a second.

Setting: Barbeque on Endor, Vader's all pissed off because he didn't get invited and throws an emo fit. Luke, upset that Vader is trying to one up his own emo fit comments on said emo fit, Lightsabers erupt and here we go.

Darth Vader swings his Lightsaber at Luke Skywalker. (DV -5 LB)
Luke Skywalker parries Darth Vader's attack. (LS -3 LB)

LS Swings his Lightsaber at DV. (LS -5 LB)
DV dodges LS's attack. (DV -5LB)

Round 2 Totals: LS Limit - 92 DV Limit - 90

DV swings his Lightsaber at LS. (DV -5 LB)
LS barely parries the atttack! (LS -10 LB)
In this situation, Luke managed to survive the attack but it was within a point range of the roll (for example, Vader rolled a 80 attack and Luke rolled a 78 dodge.. a near miss. Due to a near miss he takes a large LB hit)

LS uses the Force to throw a roasted pig at DV. (LS -10 LB)
DV lifts his hand to repel the attack. (DV -3 LB)
Bear in mind I'm just making these numbers up off the top of my head. I would think that defensive actions however should cost less than aggressive actions, you don't open yourself up as much defending. It also lends to the mentality that you could have someone who wears down their opponents)

Round 2 Totals: LS Limit - 72 DV Limit - 82
After the second round, Luke is clearly getting worn down by Vader. Let's see what he could do this next round while Vader presses his advantage.

DV aggressively swings his Lightsaber at LS's Head! (DV -10 LB)
LS parries with his Lightsaber. (LS -3 LB)

Luke Skywalker takes no aggressive actions this round.

Round 3 totals: LS Limit - 69 DV Limit - 72


DV aggressively swings his Lightsaber at LS's Hand! (DV -7 LB)
LS dodges! (LS -0 LB)
This is a 'critical' dodge. Basically a natural, perfect score dodge. No limit is taken off and a message could even be sent to the player to let them know 'hey, you just pulled off something amazing!' so they could pose it.

LS swings his Lightsaber at DV. (LS -5 LB)
DV attempts to dodge but LS's Lightsaber grazes him! (DV -10 LB)
A critical fail on the dodge/defend attempt nets a much larger loss of Limit Break

Oh Noes! Han Solo is tired of the noise and he woke up. Siding with Luke he starts firing!

Han Solo fires his Blaster at Darth Vader (HS -5 LB)
DV lifts his hand and absorbs the blaster shot. (DV -3 LB)


Round 4 Totals: LS Limit - 64 LB DV Limit - 52 LB HS Limit - 95



Annnnnnd so on.


This would be what I could see a fight being. We're about half way through and that's 4 rounds with those base numbers. Now the big key would be setting up what each attack/defense cost in base Limit Break points, what each critical success/failure would do to modify those base costs, and honestly the system would be set. Each attack would probably have some kind of 'Limit Break threshold' where as that Resist number gets closer to 0 the odds of it Breaking get higher. It should have to wait to get to 0, but it should be working down pretty far before actually breaking. Thoughts?

One possible wrinkle --

If a fresh combatant leaps into the middle of a half-finished fight, he will have a greatly magnified effect. This could be a good thing, but it's definitely a game-changer.

Should it be encouraged, on the principle that "Han Solo swoops in on the Falcon and saves the day," or somehow compensated down on the principle that duels shouldn't be easily spoiled by third parties?

Well as we discussed in the builder thread: If we have zone to zone movement restrictions on worlds that could help. in /FACT/

What about this? what if when you move from one zone to another it drains your limit resist too? It gives a boost to vehicles since you're not walking, your riding. But if you go running from the Senate to the underworld you cross 3 zones, you arrive at 2/3 Limit Resist to start with. If you're strolling around, it doesn't matter that much anyway.

AND this could play nicely into the concept of ambushing people while they're wandering around, etc, drawing people out into a fully rested squad. It helps PCs who are defending. If you're defending a point you're rested, if you are running their to assault you're tired. thoughts?

Very interesting. It's like a stamina system (I've created combat systems with stamina systems before), but more weighted toward creating cinematic combat.

Right, or in our case, it's a resistance to getting wtfpwnd system. I just think that if we go the other direction with build up you'll see a lot of potential abuse. This minimizes the abuse and puts the emphasis on the Defender.

And then imagine if there were specific skill groups that affected the impact of actions on Limit?

Like, at level 10, players can choose a 'feat' for lack of better word that reduces the cost of using high powered attacks or one that gives a bonus to every successful parry, or what not? That could be an interesting (if balanced) system. I don't mean 'huge' bonuses, again a point or two that could add up over the length of a battle. A 'Force throw' Feat that reduces the cost of force throwing an object from 7 down to 5 or what have you... to help flesh out your char. I could really see the benefits of this to help identify chars. A Jedi Master who has 'Lightsaber Wall' feat which makes his parry cost 2 as opposed to 3 since he's worked on being a parry master and a defensive giant.

There is a risk of this all becomming rediculously complicated...is DH2 going to ship with a manual and tutorial levels?

I'm going to have to go with Foghorn on this one.

Don't sweat it. It only seems bad because they are talking shop. We've had more complex mechanic than this and most players just think of them as pressing a button

Right, this is under the hood talk. For players you would see that gauge up above with the pretty colors slowly get widdled down. You'd still be attacking, parrying, dodging just like usual.

I think it would add to the mechanic somewhat if you were able to rally and regain some of your stamina once per combat or something. It might also be cool to let officers help rally their allies to a limited degree, as well.

This would allow Darth Vader, when Han Solo rushes in and opens fire, to expend his use of rally--which still means Han Solo is likely to have an advantage, but puts him at even footing. It also means that if Darth Vader is clearly beating Luke Skywalker, Luke can rally and maybe turn the tides. Etc.

If I wanted to see a stamina bar and other such widgets, I'd play a MUD. I fear we're stepping a bit far away from the good, old-fashioned @emit, partnered with an +attack (which may or may not be +limited, depending on the coolness of the people in the combat).

Complicated or not on the player end, it's still one more thing to keep track of. And, I don't know about you, but I'd rather keep track of the story.

I don't see a downside to hiding the actual "bar" that shows how close you are to the limit.

Right now, it occasionally gives you an emit of whether you think you are more tired than the other guy... but that could be wrong and that adds to some of the excitement.

Besides, a visible bar of how tired you are might lead to people figuring out exactly when to start their +flee, etc. We don't want people playing like that, right?

Is there a downside to hiding your stamina?

In my experience with MUSHing, a more elaborate combat system never hurt anyone. It's the vague combat systems, like Elendor, that make combat frustrating. Think of it as an automated arbitrator.

In this particular instance, a mechanic is being added to specifically make combat more likely to be cinematic and awesome--I think that adds to the story.

While we may only press a button, to use the sytem we'll have to understand it, find out why X or Y happened. The initial idea for lightsabre duels to be more too and fro is a good one, I fear applying it outside of epic lightsabre duels is just complicating things that are already long enough (Seriously, combat can take a while already)

I specifically wanted to see it happen outside of just lightsaber duels because blaster combat as it stands is one of the most ridiculous things ever when it is between two high-level soldiers. Said soldiers can survive multiple shots to the face. What combat needs is more lethality.

Limit break, as I understand it, would increase the lethality of hits, and change accuracy, so it's less likely you'll shoot someone in the face on the first round, and if you do, it's less likely they will survive.

I would like some ideas as to how limit break, one-hit-kill "here endeth the lesson" attacks at the end of a firefight would look. Focus on awesome, cinematic, "oh my god he didn't" moments. Things that can compete with the Force Push limit break (shoving them off the nearest 50-meter drop).

Take your cue from Western-style gunfights. Both parties are behind cover, popping up, opening fire. Sometimes it's close, sometimes there's even a grazing hit. Then, at the end, your gun goes quiet for a moment; your opponent, exhausted, hoping maybe he won, emerges from cover, looking for you, and you rapidly emerge and fire a deadly shot that punishes his moment of laxity.

I think that's how a climactic firefight generally ends--someone lets his guard down and is taken down by a single precise shot. As the fight wears on you're more inclined to be reckless, or your opponent is better able to track your patterns and score a more deadly hit, etc.

While we're at it, let's have food items that replenish stamina. Oh, snap, maybe we should have fullness so people don't just eat all the time. And then they'll have to be able to use the restroom.


I like combat as it is, now. Why over-complicate something that works just fine and is easy to use? I've seen plenty of awesome combat scenes that were made awesome by the people in them, not any particular coded system.


As for the lethality of hits, not many come back up after +strike Unfortunate Joe=head, especially by a skilled gunman or Force user.

Um, yes, because "food items" is the same thing as "changing the combat mechanic so it stops being so goddamn ridiculous."

There are several logs of people taking hits to the head and still going even against skilled gunmen and even Jedi.

The Limit-Break system is pretty awesome, actually.