Player Run Missions

I am hoping this attempt at constructive criticism will gain a bit of a response from both staff and players. While I am not sure how many people actually check the forums at this stage, it seems the best avenue for such a suggestion as it allows me to type and read my own comments/thoughts.

Criticism: Honest or not, it seems the staff has been stretched thin by a number of different factors and the currently staff-heavy format for directing and providing RP for the playerbase is suffering badly. I do not think I have heard a single Player either not complain or allude to their disappointment with the start of the game and the various directions that we have been taken with seemingly no PC intervention factored into the outcome of the grand plot.

Positive: The game is still young and has a group of fairly loyal players and staff that want to make it work. If we didn't, I think our attrition rate would actually be a bit higher than what currently seems to be the case.

Solution: Why not give some of these overworked staffers a bit of a break and a chance to relieve themselves of what is ailing them? There are a number of capable players on the game with the abilities to run scenes on a temporary basis to take the burden off the staff, while still allowing the staff to give some needed direction here and there.

Construction: The staff can post missions for each side that has a physical direction. No more 'collect information' or 'find group of people' missions. I think every player on both sides is rather tired of that cause there is no mechanism for doing either without burdening the staff. Missions should be very focused. Kidnap target X. Steal this datapad. Find this person and get the information they have before the other side is able to find them. Missions without any real direction or chance of success (kill Jedi/Sith) are unnecessary and waste both the staff time and player morale. All missions are run by a 'Story PC'.

Breakdown: The mission is posted by staff and any PC can offer their services to act as the judge. If both sides are involved, than a PC for each side should be appointed for the mission. These PCs are not to act as leaders, but to player their characters within the confines of their PCs IC, while also supplying NPCs and other story aspects of the mission for those around them to react to. The 'Story PC' is pre-informed of certain requirements (break a trap, come up with a plan, etc.) to move through the mission. The PC(s) are required to make sure the teams fulfill the requirements of the mission and react in a reasonable fashion to PC input. They are not there to guide PCs, but simply to judge their actions reasonably and form plausible reactions.

Bonus: By using normal Players, the burden of running every mission is removed fro the staff. Most missions can be reasonably refereed by players and there simply needs to be someone that has an idea of what the end game might look like and able to judge the PC actions accordingly. This keeps RP flowing, even when staff might be busy, and enhances the RP experience for all those participating.

Bonus #2: This can act as a training ground for Players to learn what it takes to become a judge or staff member. Rather than having people arbitrarily volunteer people that are popular, staff will have firm evidence of players that grasp what it takes to run scenes. Also, players themselves will know which potential candidates are really going to serve the game best and have a greater respect for their judgments in the future. It would act as a way to vet new staffers.

These are just a few thoughts. I understand the idea needs more time to really bloom, but from those that I have suggested it to (with a single exception) seem to support the idea in a basic form. Admittedly, handing over some of the missions to Players would take a great deal of trust on behalf of the staff, but the game will stagnate at the rate of the status quo. I do not think anyone wants to see that.

That's exactly the thing we're working on doing right now.

The Sith side is coming together slower. The Republic side sorta is forming up. Essentially they are "task forces" with PC leaders that have the responsibility for planning and doing the missions.

But, as frustrating as it may be for PCs to have this initial "lack of control" in the "grand plot" it's a bit of a necessity. We certainly will be having players move into more and more prominent roles. But it seemed silly (and still seems silly) to have PCs in command at level 5. And not only that, how could we pick leaders? Based on DH1 performance?

I think we have a good sense of PCs on DH2 that are emerging as leaders within their factions, etc.

A temporary solution, at best.

First of all, the approach is all wrong. The game should never have been so forced into the needing direct Storyteller involvement from the start. What made DH1 good was the flexibility for people to do anything. Even the major events were largely player-driven, with a little background staff support. Now, however, people feel like they cannot do anything without a Storyteller present.

Solution: Storytellers should remain in the background - they should have, from the start. They are the minor NPCs, the faceless victims of Sith occupation, the soldiers in the background, and the source of unbiased news reports (and even those painfully spammy @wall emits).

Just because Bo's TPs were great fun, they were not the driving elements of DH1. But, just because his and similar small TPs were successful, does not mean the entire game should be run as if it were a tabletop game. It just doesn't work as a MUSH.

Sure, Storytellers needed more control to pull off the "grand plot," but, honestly, the war should have been better thought out, lasted longer, and taken place several months after the game started, so all the bugs could have been worked out.

I'm going to disagree to some degree.

Massive player-control on DH1 lead to a stagnation that was only broken by serious efforts by staff to bring about a story-resolution (thus "ending" DH1.)

But how would we have put PCs in charge of things? Let them sign up? Give them all level 20s?

PCs are eyeing the grand plot as the only plot it town. It's really not. It is, really, the backdrop for things. We bring it up because our PCs seem to want to interact with it continuously...

We should have, probably, started the MUSH at the point we're at now. With the Empire in control of most things. It was, perhaps, disingenuous of us to set up the "planet" as New Republic controlled. But we wanted to show the fall of the planets. It was done with less finesse than anyone is satisfied with.

We have bugs, granted. But we also are dealing with a rather abrupt shift in playstyle. Made even worse by our last days on DH1. Those were fun, sure, running around doing _whatever_ we wanted because we knew the game was ending and so who cares? But then we dropped DH2 on everyone and basically said "This is a world full of consequences." And tried to keep up.

Staff was having a hard time enforcing the laws that we knew HAD to be enforced. It'd be nice if PCs were in those roles, but it doesn't quite work out that way early on. We also don't want to throw people into roles within even a month... we are trying to set new standards... where RP takes longer to advance and players spend more time in specific ranks and doing things.

We want to get away from thinking of it as a WOW type MUSH where we RP to level up, and start thinking of RPing in whatever role you have for the purpose of your character's story.

And I think that's the sticking point. We definitely want to tell the stories of the individual characters. Yes, the characters will eventually raise up to become commanders and make choices that change the course of the "Grand Plot" of Republic vs Empire...

But I would like to see stories of characters that span their lives that ask and answer questions about what type of person the character is. Did they avoid battle at all costs? Negotiating, surrendering, pleading, fleeing? Or did they get in fights at every turn? Why did they do that? What drove them to do that? Does the Republic Pilot feel ashamed that he flies for an organization that failed to protect its own planets? Or does he feel angry at the Empire and want vengence for the death of his co-pilot.

My plan to help fix things is definitely related to improving player power. By player power, I mean the ability for players to do things without staff involvement... yet still putting protections in place to prevent twinking.

I have a simple three step plan:

Build new locations
Work out a system to get to locations
Fix the bugs/dispute points of our systems.

I think that will go a long way to spurring ideas (right now people are so... Vasatissa focused) and hopefully will lead us toward better fun for everyone.

I think you're missing what I'm saying.

The most fun people had on DH1 wasn't at the free-for-all end, but during the large player-driven initiatives like the rise of the Black Imperium, the Rim Rebellion, and the political fallout of the actions of Jedi. All were largely successful because of player dynamic, but fell through because they lacked wizard direction towards the Grand Plot, which existed in the background initially, but then got lost and forgotten, which, in turn, led to stagnation.

However, DH1 had coded systems without proper documentation on their use and little to no enforcement. DH2 has a lot of the same, with a level of enforcement that sometimes turns into the fun police. A median between the two has to exist for both fun and common sense to coexist.

There's nothing wrong with showing the collapse of planets, but it would have been more interesting if players had been allowed to get familiar with the systems, with game dynamic, and with their own characters before the rug was pulled out from under their feet. In a way, rather like the start of DH1.


PS: What does level 20 have anything to do with being a PC in charge? RP doesn't always have to be +skill checks and levels.

I think we're mostly on the same page.

I have some ideas, but they are really open for abuse and so I'm thinking of ways we can have some minimal oversight to keep that in check.

As a player who is attempting to get player-driven missions underway, there is a lot of hiccups to doing this at present. Some of it is code related, some of it is simply getting people going related.

Here's where I am finding a big issue and concern that I really would like to hear some input on. We get a group of people together to do a player run mission and the ST who was doing it vanishes. Alright, cool, whatever. Suddenly everyone involved no longer wants to participate.

We need a guide of expected difficulties for some basic rolls (stealthing into a crowded bar? That's an Easy) so that as a Player organizer I can give folks an idae, but also I don't feel like I have the authority to play those 'bit NPCs' to give reactions. The system is very dependant upon the STs to play the surrounding stuff, even if it has nothing to do with the main story line. It isn't sufficient for simply the theme to be established or the situation, but I'm hesitant to do /anything/ without an ST present since if there's a reaction outside of that we have no control.

What I have found, is that the player driven RP is focused at present around the Bar RP. But here's the problem, the player base has been split in half, far to prematurely in my opinion. I have yet to see any conclusive evidence or argument as to why the occupation of Vasatissa ended so abruptly, so anti-climatically, and at the time it did. When we can't even undock ships, why did we shove everyone to different areas so they can't interact and have that conflict driven char development?

So, as I said, as a player who is /trying/ to run missions, I need help. I need the tools to do it, I need the information of what I'm allowed to do, what I'm not to do. I need the help of STs to make some things happen. And I also need the freedom to tell people sorry you can't come if you're not going to contribute. Because in the two player driven scenes I've seen, both of them collapsed under the weight of one line poses. I've seen a 5 letter pose. Seriously. If you aren't interested in the scene, people shouldn't be coming to events and what not because all theya re doing is bloating down the participation. I deeply wish I had a way to detract XP from people who did that crap, because they are flat out ruining scenes.

The sad thing is? They're proud of it.

A typical "gather information" mission involves very little interaction from STs which is why we are posting that type of mission so often. They usually involve talking to other players in RP to get information (which is a good reason not to open fire right away) or else just looking around with a scout ship or your own two legs.

Right now the biggest help would be a simple display of IC or OOC leadership. To be blunt, you are the guys on the ground so you have a different, yet very critical, perspective than a typical staff member right now. Most of staff still haven't had time to create their own characters yet. We need your input--- brainstorm mission ideas!

The act of brainstorming missions in itself can create a lot of RP much like the RP Royal Jelly was lamenting the lack of. This kind of RP is what creates player-driven initiatives. Point of fact, experience has shown that a good PC leader is worth two or three storytellers when it comes to RP creation so we really want people to step up and be leaders.

You aren't a high rank? No problem! Pitch mission ideas to your superiors. Not only does showing that kind of skill and initiative create RP it bodes well for your IC career. You aren't a member of the Empire or the Republic? Form a group of people with a common interest and plan missions for that group.

Basic Phases:
1) Initial plan - RP this with your fellows for maximum enjoyment. Depending on what you want to do you may want to get a staff member involved in the OOC brainstorming at this stage. When in doubt, ask.
2) Recon - This is stage where you gather information and check the viability of your plan. Staff may or may not become involved at this point depending on the mission.
3) First hour of Ocean's Eleven - You finalize the plan and do all the prep work. This is usually the best time for character development and interaction.
4) Execution - You carry out the mission.

You can get a week's worth of RP out of each phase without much of a stretch though most players try to speed through them. Staff may not be able to support every mission you come up with. (We really don't like to spend our time on "Free Stuff" missions or "instant power" missions).

It still involves some staff interaction, sure, but since players would typically be doing half the work for us this saves us a lot of time.

(Sorry for the double post)

To Paradox's post ---

Undock should be working now.

By all means, if somebody isn't going to contribute and you are doing all the work then give them the boot as tactfully as possible. I know exactly what you mean. I encourage you and everyone else to NOT +vote for that.

As to expected difficulties on basic rolls--- I agree fully. We need more and better guidelines. Aside from that, I honestly don't care if you and the other players involved choose to only roll +checks for the most critical things.

On Vanishing ST's--- I don't know how to help out with this one. If you have ideas then let me know.

On the player split--- A neutral world should be coming online in the near future where the local authorities will not tolerate violence. Think of this as a Cold War Berlin where lots of interesting things can happen. If you have any other ideas for this then let me know.

Basically, if you have solutions then @mail me or PM me. They don't have to be perfect because, frankly, how often is there a silver bullet solution? But every little bit can help.

Here's a suggestion I might have. And I know this well may not go over too well. But here it is anyway.

I like the idea of having travel between worlds and locations a bit 'easier' for the moment. JUST for the moment while things get filled out. I don't know if others have noticed but sometimes getting around can be a little bit tricksy. The idea I have is, we used to have +travel for between worlds. Perhaps when the new Berlin type place comes online, having it easier for players to get there for the cross-faction RP but unless you fly there you can't use combat commands for 24 hours or some such so you don't have people showing up to pewpew just because? Or something? I just feel very twitchy about the breaking apart honestly.

Edit -- Regarding +checks. I require any players in my scene to +check athletics=easy for breathing. Every time they pose. Fail=death.

That's my 2nd plan there. Once we have places, streamline the ability to get places.

Mr.T wrote:

On the player split--- A neutral world should be coming online in the near future where the local authorities will not tolerate violence. Think of this as a Cold War Berlin where lots of interesting things can happen. If you have any other ideas for this then let me know.

If it's going to be a neutral world, don't make Vasatissa v 2.0. At least have pockets of shady law. Allow some form of neutral (not-Sith) criminal element that was originally promised, but never fleshed out, to thrive. Bonus points if this is a player-run neutral element, rather than a storyteller one.

I'm with Paradox on the +travel issue. Even if people were divided by faction loyalties in the DH1, there was always some way for them to interact with the rest of the game. Otherwise, RP is gets boring for everyone involved. (And, lol, +checks.)

Why I do not attend player run missions:

There is a large segment of the game that simply talks trash in OOC, does 1 line poses, and does their best to ruin any scene that occurs. These players are out of control and it's even more troubling to learn that some (one?) of them was sitebanned in the past and allowed to return to wreck havoc on a brand new game. Until I have some sort of assurance that these people are not going to show up , pay zero attention to rules, and make me miserable.. Why should I go ..? Its just not worth it, infact, it's not fun at all. I'd rather idle.

As for a criminal element that is player run. We have good players eager to do this but there is zero support coming from staff on it as of yet. I've personally sent in a number of requests attempting to get a link up, a bone thrown my way, any possible thing that will facilitate crime RP. It is not on the agenda yet.

We are waiting for players to step up and form the criminal/neutral elements and, yes, I think we can work in more no-police areas on the new world(s) than we ever saw or will see on Vasa. Vasa just happened to be the beacon of law and order, which is a rare distinction.

As to charges of misconduct: SEND US LOGS

We've been asking for some time now and my inboxes are all still log free. I have received no e-mails, no @mails, +requests, and no PMs containing misconduct logs of any kind. We can't do much without this information so PLEASE make it happen. Nearly every log feature can log back to the start of your history buffer so you -can- log things after the drama is over as long as you do it before closing out of your client program.

I'm led to believe that players want something done about certain conduct by the statements they have made and yet so far no one has been willing to do the one thing we have asked for repeatedly. This isn't a new request as we have repeatedly asked for this as evidence of misconduct for two years now. It should only take you a few clicks of the mouse to accomplish.

Off topic but still worth mentioning: Don't forget to send in nominations for player Reps! The deadline is this Friday.

"A typical "gather information" mission involves very little interaction from STs which is why we are posting that type of mission so often. They usually involve talking to other players in RP to get information (which is a good reason not to open fire right away) or else just looking around with a scout ship or your own two legs."

My problem with this explanation is few, if any, PCs are given any relevant or important information, which makes sense because we are the absolute bottom of the barrel right now. Beyond learning someone trained that day in a starfighter or about something that would have likely been in a news post, there was not a whole lot of information to gather and fewer people that had any information regarding anything worth knowing that wasn't already public knowledge.

The best RP I have experienced has been centered around player v. player plot hooks, which is a system I definitely support that was new. I hope everyone takes advantage of these little background-enhancers when they make a character. However, it creates a minimum of other RP for other players since both parties normally worry a bit about some of the types of players from above getting involved and ruining a potentially great scene.

Good point