Sneaking and Hiding

I don't know if this topic has been addressed yet, but a quick check of post titles hints that it has not.


Will sneaking and hiding still be in use?

Personally, I dislike the system. I think it allows for some highly illogical activity. If it is still used, I would love to see some heavy restrictions on it. If not, I'd love to see it removed. Maybe keep +sneak so that you can pass through unguarded exits without any notice to players in the rooms, but that's it.


What are the plans for this system?

We aren't sure yet; there's room for discussion.

The best hide/sneak system currently proposed features a "hide check" every minutes, and when you fail one of these, you lose your hidden status. Thus, the longer you stay, the better the chance that you'll be found out.

I like that idea. And maybe decrease the chances of success in areas with heavy security? For example, it would be easier to sneak around in Tatooine, I expect, than it would be in military areas on Coruscant.

If we're still using the planetary security thing, then maybe that would influence as well, though I suspect that system is a whole different ball of yarn.

We're probably going to have a series of "security levels" that rooms can aspire to. A super-safe region on Vasatissa will be hard to sneak through or avoid the police in. A lawless bit of turf in the Bothan highlands might be different.

I'd love to see ways to make rooms unsneakable if possible. The Command Center in a tight military facility or ship, crowded with soldiers and highly trained personnel? That place should not allow the ability to hide. I want to know there are places where privacy can be ensured without having to resort to ridiculous means like meeting on ships or hiding your location from +where. I have no problem with hiding, see, as long as it sticks to logic. Some places should be above the system. In fact, this should apply to several coded systems. I would rather see code be a tool for fun rather than the guideline by which we must live, even in the face of completely illogical circumstances.


Now, granted... I have no suggestions as to how to make that possible with the hiding system, but I'm sure others will chip in at some point. Hopefully.

Another place that should be unsneakable, based on DH1 experience, is the cockpit of a starfighter. Especially a one-seat fighter that's already got the seat jacked forward to let a SECOND Wookiee fit in.

Is it really not enough that it will now be possible for anyone to detect someone who is sneaking, and indeed highly likely if the spy stays there for long enough to catch a significant portion of the conversation?

One: hiding your location from +where is not ridiculous; it's a perfectly valid privacy mechanism. Sort of like using a strong password--you might not need it, but it's secure.

Two: this is Star Wars. Why is having a private meeting on ships ridiculous? I've done meetings on ships just because it's cool, with nothing to do with privacy concerns.

I disagree that there are locations where sneaking should just be impossible. Bear in mind, this is Star Wars. It is genre fiction. That which is cool and stylized is far more important than that which is realistic. Have you ever watched spy movies, or played a stealth computer game? Some tense, climactic moments happen when sneaking into military centers. Sure, they usually get caught--but not before they've picked up another piece of the puzzle. The new system will enable that.

So tell me: what fun does it add to make some places impossible to sneak into? What awesome scenes are going to happen if staff decides to make your pet headquarters stealth-proof? If anything you are removing the potential for a fun scene, where a spy gets caught and tries to escape, and you try to figure out what he knows. Maybe you can capture him! This is a tense and exciting moment for everyone involved. Anything could happen from here!

Stealth-proofing rooms does not promote RP; it discourages it. It does not promote conflict; it discourages it. This is a conflict-driven game. You are hurting spies as characters by disallowing them to spy unless you deign to come out of your spy-proof headquarters, and you are losing an awesome avenue of RP. Let spies take risks and get caught. Let them have their fun. If you really can't have fun with a spy scene because you think it's "illogical" for someone who is a master spy to find a way to temporarily elude detection in your headquarters, I think you should reevaluate your priorities on the game.

I think this has the potential to be a very interesting discussion, and welcome continued input from both sides.

I will jump in to note one thing: we'll probably be making recording devices impossible to use (the presence of a recording device is auto-detected immediately). There will be some thematic justification for it (holo-recorders generate feedback that is easily picked up on all standard scanners), but in the end it's a gameplay judgement. The Big Bad revealing his plans on prime time when he thinks he's privately gloating--that's a Scooby-Doo climax, not a Star Wars one. No matter which stealth/spying system we end up using, spies will seldom be able to prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Which makes life interesting. "Can my spies be trusted? Will anyone believe this intel?"

Not that I disagree with the call, but in fairness, people have a history of pretty much completely ignoring BB news posts. (Also: how am I going to tap people without a warrant!?)

A suggestion. It's possible I have just misinterpreted, but I still think that detecting a spy should be based on tracking, instead of a spy just having a chance to be revealed to everyone. Obviously everyone should have a chance, but one of the most useful parts about being a tracker is the ability to spot hidden characters. It rewards tracking without punishing those who haven't taken it with the inability to see sneaks.

It would also give people more reason to just take a few levels of tracking--currently five levels of tracker won't help against 20 levels of spy, but with the new system, it would mean you'd be more likely to detect our sneaking friend faster. It also adds in that moment of "stop! thief!" rather than everyone simultaneously noticing someone.

And think of the potential for betrayal! A tracker bodyguard who has been hired to keep out spies could be a double-agent, and not report seeing the spy--maybe he'd even tip him off that he's been spotted. Or he could decide to deal with it on his own, rather than driving him off.

The way I see it: assuming a ten minute check interval, and that there is a minimum five percent chance for a character with no training to detect a spy, the spy is unlikely to last for more than an hour or two, assuming he is really lucky. Add giving individual rooms a security rating, and even your garden variety politician can have reasonably secure meetings in the heart of their military base or whatever and have a reasonable chance of seeing spies pretty early on, especially if they decide that it's a good idea to take a few levels of tracker or whatever.

Sigh...still working my way through the threads that got filled in today...I posted my thoughts on this in the thread Ground Combat, page 2.


But in a nutshell...fine tune what we have, but basically I say leave what we have pretty much as it is.

"This is Star Wars."

I hate that argument.

I don't care if this is Star Wars. The rules of epic actions in the original movies were still dictated by logical laws of the real world. You can achieve epic things without resorting to a complete disregard for logic and then claiming it is Star Wars.

Sneaking into a command center filled with soldiers where everyone is on alert while an important meeting is being held is beyond ridiculous, for example.

I do not think making some places above sneaking and bomb-planting discourages RP at all. Sometimes people will need to meet in insecure locations precisely to prevent eavesdropping. You cannot hold a secret "let's kill someone" meeting in a room filled with moral soldiers, so you would need to find a place that is apart from such curious ears, which would perfectly enable a spy to sneak by. This is not discouraging RP. In fact, it's focusing RP. It's making spies plan ahead rather than depend on their high skills which allow them to sneak by anything and anyone. The possibility of spies just makes everyone start using whisper or trying to check for people who are, apparently, hidden under a cardboard box in an empty room... which no one notices.


Realism does not detract from the Star Wars epic experience. If moderated properly, it creates an environment where RP can flourish and it prevents some of the ill-tempted rants that have sprung up in DH1 over it. Simply allowing someone with high enough skill to go from planet to planet bombing whatever he pleases does not make it epic. It makes it annoying, illogical and discourages RP even more than putting the smack down on ridiculous actions.

In the end, I would rather risk losing some of the over-the-top "spy" RP in favor of a more friendly environment in which more fluid scenes can happen. Conflict will still take place, trust me. The only conflict these high level spies create is entirely OOC, and I think DH2 should aim to lessen that sort.

Okay there has to be some lines drawn here.

Let's take the Death Star as a military complex.

The characters were able to sneak around in it FAIRLY well. Some disguised, Obi-Wan was just stealthy. However... let's be clear... if Obi-Wan "+sneaked" into the meeting room (where all the imperial head guys were talking about "Fear will keep the local systems in line") then Obi-Wan _will_ be spotted.

It's not fair to say that high stealth actually makes one invisible. It makes one hard to spot, and it can also count as luck. (ie: Lucky you, as you darted out from the shadow, the guard was tying his shoe.)

But small rooms and small offices? Why should you be able to be in that room hidden? Why not, instead, have other methods of spying on a room like that that involves you sneaking in, planting a device, and sneaking out instead.

Sneaking and hiding in a room that is small, such as an office, yea, you would get spotted and in a hurry.

Maybe tie it to the "number of combatants can engage here is" code. But this would make it really important to get the size of the rooms right.

10 or under, no chance of hiding.
11-25 - Fair chance, depending on sill level
26-50 - easier to hide, still dependent on skill level but not as tightly as 11-25.
50+ - really easy to hide in.

Draw backs in this I see....that crime lord or that politician would hardly leave the office...thoughts?

Ok, let's say the crime lord is uber paranoid and never leaves his office. That's just something you need to play with. You may NEVER be able to sneak into his office... while he's there. You're going to have to find a way to lure him out. Or sneak in without sneaking (hire a dancer to plant a bug!)

Just because +sneak might be impossible doesn't mean all stealth or SpecOps type of trickery is impossible.

I concur Firehawk. Well stated.

Yeah, the most important thing we need to do is not gimp +sneak or boost +track or whatever. It's to give MORE stealth options to SpecOp type characters.

Whether through RP (the preferred method) or though code (less preferred but still good)

Two things that I would like to see added to the current stealth code:

1st, a [Hidden] tag on the sneaker's display that reminds them that they initiated +hide

2nd, for +hide to break on the first non-ooc communication with an occupied room. ' : ; or @emit, or at least give a very huge minus to trying to stay hidden.

Characters calling attention to themselves shouldn't remain invisible in the room. If they're wanting to conceal their identities, then we have disguises for that reason.

I've run across too many scenes where players are roleplaying from hidden as if they are not hiding, then stating 'oh, I forgot I was hiding' I think having the reminder will help greatly with that.

I would have to disagree on the emit/pose to stop the +hide. I know I, to give players a chance to respond and not just be a hidden character, will pose something that gives fair warning that there is some one in the room other than the visible characters. Just an emit that a sounds of movement, a tossed pebble, a darting shadow....otherwise you just have dark characters and give nothing to the scene, imho.

The problem with emit or posing or anything to cancel a +hide is that it's not always an emit or pose that requires you to come out of hiding.

Luke was +hiding from Vader in the Emperor's throne room, while still having force conversation... he didn't have to +unhide for it... and then when he DID... he did +unhide.

If a player is posing throwing things at you or otherwise being twinky, that's what calling in a Storyteller is for to judge them unhidden by their actions.

But I don't think most people do that. The little "[You are Hidden]" thing is kinda useful though.

then perhaps an amnesty for @emit, but honestly, if I am hidden and type

'hey guys!
or
:enters the room with a swagger in his step and too many credits in his pocket.

then I should break +hide because my actions do not reflect that any longer.

per Luke hiding in the shadows of the throne room:
There was also no question about who it was in the room that was holding the conversation. It was a convoluted room that would require adjudication to say that line of sight was blocked between the speaker and the listener in our game world, since for us, we'd only see:

The Emperor's Throne Room
insert cool desc here
Palpatine
Vader
Luke

without a storyteller or staff there to agree that there is enough areas for Luke to evade notice long enough to +hide, it just can't happen -unless- all three players in the scene are mature and can agree to it.

if they can agree, they don't need code. if they can't agree, then they need staff.

just because it can be coded, doesn't mean that it will fit 100% of all applications thought up for it.

Oh, I agree...most times a page asking another player "What do you think, can I do this?" goes a very long way. If you feel that you can, the other player doesn't think you can, call staff. No big issue, no drama, let an outside observer make the call.

I know when I see someone actually pose in and speak I tend to page them and say "Hey, you are hidden" and they usually apologize and unhide. No big issue.

Same with folks walking around armed. If the scene doesn't fit the player walking around with that massive cannon slung over his shoulder, a page is usually responded with "Doh, forgot I had that" and the weapon is unwielded.

Simple, clean and efficient.

SexyBoy wrote:

"This is Star Wars."

I hate that argument.

I don't care if this is Star Wars. The rules of epic actions in the original movies were still dictated by logical laws of the real world. You can achieve epic things without resorting to a complete disregard for logic and then claiming it is Star Wars.

Perhaps you should stop bringing up "logic," because it takes a back seat to "what is cool" in genre fiction. Because, news flash: we are not playing a game of gritty realism, but one of epic adventure, where a single starfighter can blow up an entire battlestation. This is genre fiction. Learn to play by its rules.

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Sneaking into a command center filled with soldiers where everyone is on alert while an important meeting is being held is beyond ridiculous, for example.

See previous post with regards to that, specifically with regards to how it happens in pretty much every spy movie ever made.

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I do not think making some places above sneaking and bomb-planting discourages RP at all. Sometimes people will need to meet in insecure locations precisely to prevent eavesdropping. You cannot hold a secret "let's kill someone" meeting in a room filled with moral soldiers, so you would need to find a place that is apart from such curious ears, which would perfectly enable a spy to sneak by. This is not discouraging RP. In fact, it's focusing RP. It's making spies plan ahead rather than depend on their high skills which allow them to sneak by anything and anyone. The possibility of spies just makes everyone start using whisper or trying to check for people who are, apparently, hidden under a cardboard box in an empty room... which no one notices.

Hahahaha.

Okay, first of all: nobody is going to be worried about NPCs overhearing their conversation. You can have a secret "let's kill someone" meeting in a room filled with moral soldiers, because the moral soldiers are NPCs, and sometimes they aren't even coded objects.

Second: sure, people will whisper when they think they might be being spied on. It's the same sort of metagaming that leads them to, oh, hold a meeting in a room which they know OOCly is spy-proof. The thing is, not everyone resorts to whisper, and they wouldn't stop just because we gave them more places where they could hide--but I bet you everyone would resort to their spy-proof rooms if they existed. You wouldn't see people resorting to these non-spy-proof areas because they're afraid NPCs would overhear them. If that's their concern, there's always ships, which still exist, and are still perfectly and realistically private.

Quote :

Realism does not detract from the Star Wars epic experience. If moderated properly, it creates an environment where RP can flourish and it prevents some of the ill-tempted rants that have sprung up in DH1 over it. Simply allowing someone with high enough skill to go from planet to planet bombing whatever he pleases does not make it epic. It makes it annoying, illogical and discourages RP even more than putting the smack down on ridiculous actions.

Yes, it does, actually. If Star Wars was realistic, the movies would never have happened. The Empire would have won right away.

You seem to be confusing realism with twinking. Going from planet to planet arbitrarily bombing is not annoying because it's "illogical." It's annoying because it doesn't do anything for anyone. It doesn't help the bomber. It doesn't hurt the bombee. There is no RP about it, no chance to investigate the bombing, no real chance for the bomber to be caught in the act. The only thing that comes of most bombing sprees is the occasional post denouncing them and offering some trivial bounty for their arrest. It has nothing to do with realism.

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In the end, I would rather risk losing some of the over-the-top "spy" RP in favor of a more friendly environment in which more fluid scenes can happen. Conflict will still take place, trust me. The only conflict these high level spies create is entirely OOC, and I think DH2 should aim to lessen that sort.

Did you really just call everyone who has ever played a spy an OOC drama-whoring twink? Really? Speaking as someone who has done plenty of espionage in my time, I have caused lots of fun RP with it, and never has it caused OOC drama. Maybe I just wasn't spying on the right people. I've used my information from everything from garden variety spying to blackmail to spreading false information. I've informed the outcome of a number of galactic events. It's been fun. It's provided a service to the game. It would never have happened if there were spy-proof rooms. And apparently I'm actually just a source of OOC drama and should be stamped out.

I'm glad you've come clean on what you really think, though--you're in no way concerned for the fun of the players who play spies. You aren't worried about game balance, or realism, but about making sure that you don't get spied on. So, thank you for your honesty--I'm glad to know you think that the RP (and it does create RP, unless you just whinge about it) I enjoy most is a source of OOC drama and should be stamped out with no concern for me or the players like me.

Firehawk wrote:

Ok, let's say the crime lord is uber paranoid and never leaves his office. That's just something you need to play with. You may NEVER be able to sneak into his office... while he's there. You're going to have to find a way to lure him out. Or sneak in without sneaking (hire a dancer to plant a bug!)

Just because +sneak might be impossible doesn't mean all stealth or SpecOps type of trickery is impossible.

I'm not convinced you know how paranoid people work on these games. They will just never leave their office for sensitive meetings. You can't lure someone out and hope they'll spill sensitive material.

Listening bugs are a whole 'nother can of worms, which is mostly just likely to encourage more people to whine that they can be spied on, as fun as they would be and as much as I'd love to have them. If these people can't even handle garden-variety spying, where you can spot, identify, and attempt to capture or kill the spy, how much more are they going to whinge about something that allows a spy to listen without any sort of repercussions if it's detected?

Spying and Hiding are to powerful. It isn't fair that someone has invested skills in Spying and hiding. They are not playing well.

Then the counter argument is that players can take skills that can spot spies and those with the hide skill. But many don't cause...and again my opinion...then they couldn't take 20 levels in Politician and be the uber Politician. Couldn't take the same amount of levels in merchant and thus be super rich.

Taking Spy or Hiding skills means that you are not taking skills in Command, Merchant, or anything else. So the player that is taking these skills is not going to command armies, not going to be the next Chancellor or become very wealthy.

So lets limit, as I see it, skills that go counter to what I want or that may harm me. How is this fair?

And I have long argued in favor of the revision where hide is done as a check every ten minutes and there's always a chance to spot said spy. I'm perfectly fine with certain rooms having security ratings that make it easier to spot spies in them. I think it will add the right balance--one which favors the espied, especially if they take some levels for counterespionage. One which will make the dynamic very interesting.

It bothers me that despite this concession, that would make things more fun for everyone, the anti-spy crowd, despite having not even really tried it on for size, continues to complain that spies are ruining the game or whatever (if by "the game" you mean "their ability to conduct meetings in absolute secrecy without anyone spying on them, which is apparently fundamental to their enjoyment of the game for some reason"). It's in no way helpful to discussions about how to make the game more fun.