Sneaking and Hiding

Puts you in 'scan mode' for the duration. Your initiation of 'scan mode' can be seen, and then there's half an hour or so of wondering.

Spy: Has he seen me? Has he seen me?

Scanner: Is there a spy here? Is there?

Again, pure off-the-top-of-my-head idea.

Thought: some actions should not be emitted to the room whilst hiding; drawing a weapon, for instance. I have several times wished I could draw a weapon while hiding, either because I was about to leap out of the shadows and attack or because I was pretty sure someone saw me and was about to attack.

So, what does Scan Mode do, and how does it differ from +scan working immediately?

I'm not a big fan of time delays because of people's rate of posing. It could take an hour to get through two poses, or you could be done with the scene by then.

Considering some people's time limitations, two high profile officials may not have time to sit around and wait until Security Officer A +scans the room to ensure they won't be overheard while they discuss important business.

Not against it, but trying to understand what it accomplishes.

And I am too against time delays for the above stated reasons.

I like quick one pop +scan. Run it, no one around, cooldown until it is up again and you can sweep one more time. Room wide emit is good I think for it.

Bob is meeting with Joeba the Hutt. Bob keeps scanning for spies, Joeba sees this can can assume Bob doesn't trust him. Ooops, Bob's bad.

Or: Joeba sees this and says "oh, I should scan for spies, too" and also +scans.

This is really, really belated...but I think most of the discussion here missed the real point of high-level hiding.

The real point of high-level hiding is not to go unseen. If I'm trying to portray a realistic (as in: like real life) spy, I don't even /care/ about that. Because frankly, sooner or later someone is going to see you, and when they do, the first thing they'll do is arrest you. Sneaking around behind bushes looks suspicious. A spy does not want to look suspicious.

High-level sneaking is all about being in plain sight; about pretending you belong somewhere, and are insignificant and should be ignored. I'd much rather be a janitor cleaning up then hiding in a ventillation duct.

Moreover, most spy work is not about hiding. You can do /plenty/ of espionage without ever hiding or planting a bomb. One of the key skills is simply creative use of information, both in information you gather, and how you present information to others.

For example:

Lets say that Sith A is a good ally (npc or pc) of Sith B. But you do some investigating and find out that Sith B is doing something minor behind the back of Sith A; perhaps a bit of embezzelment, or perhaps he's sleeping with his girlfriend, or something. They are Sith, there /will/ be dirt.

But they are such good friends that they are unlikely to believe you randomnly walking up and telling one of them. It would just be seen as rumor-mongering and would get you killed. So you hire an investigator to investigate Sith B...and tell the investigator its on behalf of Sith A. Better yet; hire an unskillful one. With all good luck, he'll find out...and then wonder why his friend is spying on him. You then wait until Sith B is out of his home, get a storyteller, and plant listening bugs all over his home. He'll get home, probably find them...and begin worrying about why his best friend is spying on him so much. With just a little bit of effort you can make him paranoid enough to do something he'll regret.


Stuff like that. The above example is convoluted, but really, really easy to do. No, its not as effortless as 'I type +hide and remain in this room never posing or rping'...but well, real results require work.


Edit: P.S.

Yes, I can hear the complaints. "But thats disguise code! I hate disguises! People overused them on DH!' Yes, because everyone assumed they were perfect actors, and masters of makeup and body language. Which was, frankly, mallarky. But that doesn't mean that people with the appropriate skills shouldn't be (doing such things); but they are a rare, rare breed.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying that the +hide skill is not necessary because you should be able to rely on disguises and cleverness? That the +hide skill should represent disguises and cleverness?

The thing is, even with the best disguise ever, you're not going to be able to eavesdrop on the secret conversation between Rosencrantz and Guildenstern if they kick everyone out that isn't the two of them. Sure, you could infiltrate their organization, become a trusted compatriot, and be invited to that meeting, but that takes weeks or months of intrigue, and then you're in danger of blowing your cover if you use any of your newfound private knowledge. It's better in the long run, but it's not a replacement. Supposing you need to find out what a private conversation is about, and you can't wait for them to trust you? Supposing you need to do some sabotage or larceny? Supposing you don't trust that they aren't keeping something from you even after that infiltration?

EDIT: We actually have disguise code now, and it's pretty neat. But it is not a replacement for hiding, in my vaunted opinion.

No, I'm not saying the hide skill has no use for remaining unseen par se. I'm saying that you'd rather be one of those npcs they ignore (as you pointed out earlier) then anything else. Thats the trick - be an npc. Be one of those nameless crew members that are around all the time when people head up to their spy-proof ships. Alright, so pretending to be a crew member won't be easy. ....but you get the idea. I'm saying that while low-level uses of the hide skill would be (realistically) remaining unseen, high-level uses would be right there, in plain sight, as someone who they would ignore. A slave, a servant, a minion.

I for one have been in many, many MANY secret meetings, but have never once seen the players involved kick out every npc and pose it. Just like in real life, you ignore the help.

Edit: Also, I am unaware of the disguise code, so perhaps this is redundant.

Here is the thing. ICly, sure, you are one of the help. OOCly? You see three people in the room. The High Emperor of All Things Evil, the Grand Vizier of Pain and Suffering, and George the Janitor.

The Emperor and Grand Vizier are discussing their secret plans to destroy the universe, and they are understandably slightly suspicious of some janitor who is sitting in the scene, posing about how they are sweeping the floor.

The thing is people mostly just ignore NPCs existing on an OOC level. They assume that they are the only people present in a room. When you remind them, they'll probably just order everyone out.

EDIT: But yeah, disguise code definitely helps out a lot on that front. Not sure if it's survived to DH2, but it would be kind of annoying if it didn't.

I have to admit your last post is hillarious. But keep this in mind:

The Emperor of All That is Evil and the Grand Vizier are doing this in the Emperor's Jabba-Like throneroom, filled with hangers-on, bodyguards, assassins, flunkies, minions, and sucking-up politicians. They have no problem with this. Until a third pc is pointed out to them.

Alright, so perhaps there isn't a perfect solution, but I was just trying to point out how espionage would work more realistically (and effectively). You have very good points, I admit. I just wanted my two-cents in.

So, were I to propose a fix for this problem, I would essentially allow for +disguise to function in a manner basically similar to +hide--you simply don't appear in the room description. It's the same as disguising yourself as an NPC that fades into the background.

This is not a very good solution, since it basically makes +hide redundant, and I'm not sure how one could separate them otherwise. And it makes absolutely no sense in places like the middle of nowhere, or places where there are no NPCs.

In a perfect world, sneaking would work like so:

Sneaky Sneakerson pages: Cheerio, good chap. May I be of clever and sneaky mind and attempt to spy on your coming meeting with Darth Pantilus, Lord of Pants?

Emperor Pantspatine pages: Well, it would be quite a nuisance if our dealings were thusly found out, but it would be interesting to see what happens. Let us get a Judge/Storyteller to preside and make the relevant skill checks based on the situation.


Now, we can only assume that both players pose unaffected by their OOC knowledge and the staffer brought in to mediate is of just sort. A childish dream, perhaps, but with a much lower potential of arguing and abuse than a coded solution - though it does rely quite heavily on cooperative elements so many are averse to.

It also relies on the immediate presence of staff.

Assuming two mature, like-minded individuals cannot handle it between themselves, yes. I merely added that point in the example as it is usually not the case.

If tales of separate +staff accounts and storyteller availability are true, finding one shouldn't be particularly difficult, unless it is an unfortunately late hour.

Hoping that stealth can be worked out OOCly between players is a pipe dream at best. Even the very best of players (and I speak from experience here) will act differently when they OOCly know that something suspicious is going on.

I continue to advocate a system akin to that of +hide from before, opposed presumably by streetwise or forensics or perhaps an array of skills now that there is no tracking skill, except that a check happens every X minutes as to whether or not the player can be detected.

This is vastly superior to Gulp's proposed 'stealth minutes' system for a number of reasons. First, and most obviously, it does not make stealth work perfectly, ever. The espied character is the one detecting the hidden character. He is not seeing someone who has run out of Stealth Minutes, but spotting someone on his own.

Second, it does not penalize a player for lying in wait for someone. If I have learned of a pending meeting between two prominent politicians in the Senate chambers, and go there in advance and hide, then, under Gulp's proposed system, I will probably run out of Stealth Minutes before either of them shows up. Under the system I am proposing, there will be no one present to be checking for my hidden self.

Third, it does not mean that the stealthy character will be revealed to the entire room at once. It is significantly more interesting to have a single player spot him--whether it is the lookout, with his high appropriate skill, or a lucky other player. This gives them the chance to point out that they have spotted the thief--or perhaps to ignore the intruder or otherwise choose their reaction.

Fourth, it adds a degree of uncertainty. With Stealth Minutes, the stealthy character knows that he has a set amount of time, and presumably knows when they are out and he has been spotted. With my proposed system, it is possible for the stealthy character to go through the whole scene without being spotted. It is also possible he will be spotted straight away. He does not know when he has been spotted unless someone reacts.

Finally, it does not require a daily reservoir of ability that is steadily depleted. The stealthy character is not penalized for hoping to spy on multiple people in one day. Each time he does still bears a risk, and he is more likely to have his luck run out if he tries it several times during a day, but it is not automatic.

I like that there are no judges on DH2.

I'm totally with JellyBean on this: Paging Pantspatine and setting up a RP, one that isn't necessarily beneficial to your own character, is totally the way to go.

Who knows, next time, it might be someone handing -you- juicy info/your worst enemy/the Darlana Diamond on an OOC silver platter

I am not against a coded solution, but they are usually far from perfect and can often be abused. Not that it isn't all perfectly good fun for some, going around +hidden and snooping on people tends to be rather boring at times. And it often instills rather poor sentiments on the espied when discovered. (Did it not, sneaking would not often be such a topic of heated debate.)

If we are trying to turn over a new leaf with DH2, why not give people a chance to do these things non-codedly (and, perhaps, without the need for mediation), rather than assuming the worst of persons from the get-go?

Royal Jelly wrote:

I am not against a coded solution, but they are usually far from perfect and can often be abused. Not that it isn't all perfectly good fun for some, going around +hidden and snooping on people tends to be rather boring at times. And it often instills rather poor sentiments on the espied when discovered. (Did it not, sneaking would not often be such a topic of heated debate.)

If we are trying to turn over a new leaf with DH2, why not give people a chance to do these things non-codedly (and, perhaps, without the need for mediation), rather than assuming the worst of persons from the get-go?

I'm inclined to agree with RJ, as a player who intends to do a fair bit of sneaking. I think the best approach as a sneaker is to be up front about the fact that you're going to attempt to sneak - that way the players being potentially spied on don't have the uncomfortable mystery putting them on edge OOCly.. the KNOW what's happening on an OOC level and, at least for me, being 'kept in the loop' make it easier to swallow that my character's secrets may be laid bare. I'm cool enough with the 'it's a game' aspect of RP to not get upset if someone gets the best of my character, but like anyone else if I can perceive that something is going on OOC but people are being OOCly shady about it, it builds in unhealthy out-of-character tension.

Take it a step farther, then, and I also feel that being up front about it OOC and removing that tension should make it easier for people to be mature as players and not need the mediation of a storyteller - but for those contentious moments, it's best if there IS one around just in case.

Sorry for the tl;dr, it's late and I think I might've gotten a little ramble-y there

That would all be well and good if the people you were spying on were all trustworthy OOCly. I can count the number of people I would vaguely trust on one hand, and even then I would be sorely disappointed in them if the information they willingly fed me was useful or timely. When it comes to something involving stealth and subterfuge, relying on people to cooperate OOCly is probably the single most naive thing you can do if you want to make it work. People want to win. Indeed, the attitude of wanting to win has been encouraged on several occasions, and I happen to think it makes for a much more compelling story. People who want to win are not going to willingly give up their advantage, and you are giving them a huge advantage by telling them you're spying on them. Suddenly they know OOC that you are spying on them, and they know what information they give you

The part that seems to be missed here, though, is OOCly cooperating is boring. If you are sneaking with the intention of gaining an advantage, spying on people who are clever and devious, OOC cooperation is going to cause you to miss out on the fun. There's nothing competitive going on. There's just a bunch of irritating walking on eggshells, trying not to be offensive. It's boring. Maybe you aren't fond of competitive--I am, and so are lots of other people.

+hide is probably the single biggest reason I stuck around DH when I first joined. It was a simply beautiful system. DH was the first MUSH I'd encountered where it was even possible to really /play/ a stealthy character instead of pretend to be one and never do anything about it. It is not viable for me to play a sneaky character without some form of competition on the OOC level. If every time my character lied to someone I paged them and said "hey, he's lying to you right now, just so you know," not only would everyone suddenly suspect me of lying ICly, I wouldn't be having any fun. It's no longer a battle of wits. I'm not wondering if they saw me, if they know I'm lying, if they are playing with me, if I've succeeded. They don't get the chance to figure it out. Everyone already knows what's going on.

Let's look at a scenario in which I spy on someone and notify them of it beforehand. If they're devious, and thus worth spying on (I will be sorely disappointed if anyone that I am spying on does not do this), they're going to reveal some information that is mostly meaningless--not inaccurate, but not helpful. Perhaps a day or so down the line they'll change their mind, or perhaps they will be discussing something from the past, some information which won't help me anymore. Perhaps they will talk about it obliquely, as people do in clandestine meetings, so I have to guess at what they really mean--and if they are good they will make it so I probably guess wrong.

All of these are perfectly valid and IC, though I'm sure people will object to the "changing their mind" thing. This is another problem: in the event that he was going to change his mind about it, he can't do so, because he leaked the information. And suddenly, since you're being all OOCly cooperative, our naive spy feels cheated that his target "twinked" and gave him bad information or changed his mind. Or, supposing in his meeting you were also giving bad information to the person you're meeting with--an IC deception of one of your highest level officials, to prevent any leaks. Same thing.

Perhaps it is true (though I am not buying it) that a coded system is open to some level of abuse that is somehow worse than the enormous level of problems a system which relies on players to be paragons of maturity and reasonability. At least it is viable, and the abuse potential is minimal at best under my proposed system--everyone would have a chance to spot hidden characters, and they would get multiple tries, so in very long scenes it is almost guaranteed that the stealthy character will get unlucky and be spotted, especially if his targets have some of the appropriate counter-skills, which is significantly easier than it was to get Track in DH1 (as pretty much all skills are).

TL;DR: a non-coded system is not viable and should not be relied upon exclusively. If you really want to use one yourself, you can try paging everyone you want to spy on and working it out like that; don't take away my fun in the process.

I guess internet star wars is more 'srs bzns' than I thought. .

e: People who get offended 'in real life' over things other characters say about their characters have some growing up to do, tbh. It's a roleplaying game; if my friends and I gathered around a tabletop could have our friendships and real life relationships endure playing adversarial characters in a game of DnD, then adults on the internet should be just as capable. Trusting and expecting people to be mature and know how to separate IC from OOC is naive, though, I gather...

Incredibly naive and incredibly boring. I am not playing a cooperative sing-along. The game is highly competitive. It's a feature. It's like you expect me to play Munchkin openly and transparently. Lying, spying, and backstabbing is part of the fun. If you can't handle that, why are you playing a character where spying comes into play at all?

Anyway, if you're expecting players to be mature and separate IC and OOC, surely you can expect someone being spied on without knowing about it to be mature and not take any offence, and be trusted to be mature enough not to take advantage of the incredibly tiny potential for abuse?

What I expect is for you and everyone else playing to understand that characters are spying on characters, not players spying on players. It seems that you're not entirely clear on that, though, and that because you and possibly others aren't clear on the difference between a real person's actions and motivations and in imaginary character's actions and motivations I'm supposed to look at every player in the game as a real person who is out to really imaginarily 'get me' or something.

e: People like you, who take roleplaying games WAY too seriously, are why there's a stigma attached to RPGs and RPers in general... take a few days off and get things in perspective, really...

Havohej,

That's far enough. There is no reason to resort to even vaguely insulting terms on this forum.

Actually, this probably should've stopped a while ago. You two have different opinions. You don't need to call one naive or the other "too serious" or anything.

Please stop now. I'm not locking the thread because I think we don't need to. But one more post of insults and I will.

People can have different opinions. They will. It's ok. Both of you.

lulz.