Jedi Knights

I agree, I'm not speaking of a hard and fast time limit. I'm speaking of reasonableness. I think a big part of this can come from staff too and from the attitude of the game, encouraging players in fact to look for the moment of epic death, looking for moments to tell the story for someone else by stepping back for a time.

An idea occurred to me just a few moments ago.

There will be characters who are losing their edge but don't seem in any danger of dying. Maybe the player is really smart and the character is a true survivor who always manages to talk his way out of a tight spot.

It occurs to me that "winning the game" is always an option.

Commander Roper, call-sign "Shrike," has commanded Rogue Squadron for eight months and won many battles in that time. His men call him "Papa Roper" or "Old Man Raven," referring to the grey Raven he flies. The player is beginning to lose interest in playing Roper, but isn't about to let an old soldier like Roper let his guard down at a seemingly-random moment, and Roper never plays hero; it's just not his way to throw away his life when men and women are depending on him.

One day, this arrives in his mail:

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From: Admiral Rittenhaus
To: Commander Roper
Subject: Project Liberty
Time: xx/xx/xxxx xx:xx
Commander Roper, as you may remember from the last General Staff meeting, we are opening a second front in the Y'toub Sector, out beyond the Murex Cluster. This second front will be remote and inaccessible; the Sith detente with the Klatooinans will render resupply difficult. The forces at our disposal will be small and generally outnumbered. In short, this is the kind of mission you excel at.

Should you choose to accept it, you will be placed in command of this second front, Project Liberty, at the rank of General. I will not deceive you; if you go on this mission, you may never return. However, should you succeed, the Sith will lose access to a powerful source of support. Project Liberty may prove one of the keys to winning this war.

I look forward to your response. Do not feel you must accept; if you wish to remain with the Rogues, there are others we can call upon.

May the Force be with you.

Sincerely,
Admiral Rittenhaus
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Roper can always refuse. Three months later, he may get another, similar offer. The offer might not be as good or sound as cool; or it might be better. If he accepts such an offer, his character will be retired honorably, and we may receive bulletins every few months on what's happening out there on the periphery, in which case his name may come up. It's not death, but sometimes it's just as good.

And let's face it, people will often retire without death anyway. We might as well have a mechanic to steer it.

That seems like a very good and reasonable situation, allow players a way out.

Here's the thought concern, what happens if the player then decides after retiring Roper he might want o pick him up again in 4 months?

Then he can play Roper. Roper will be in a one-room grid called "The Inaccessible Regions" and will be facing a daunting but unplayed foe.

After a while that might get boring.

Seriously, I think retirement should be a pretty final matter. Retired PCs--at least the ones who've accepted a "retirement offer"--should be under staff control, in theory available as questgiver/mentor NPCs, but almost always simply permanently offscreen.

I don't want to totally preclude plotlines like, "Roper returns for a week to give the current players a quest, then disappears again." But a player resuming a formally retired character? Probably not a good idea, I have never seen it work out that well.

Good, I just wanted to make sure that that was the full intent with it because I agree that once someone decides to shelve a character they need to remain shelved.

Here's a thought and this really has nothing to do with Jedi at all

Temps, alts, etc, continuing with DH1's policies?

Alts are a hot-button issue. I have yet to see a successful argument in favor; for me, the cons weigh more heavily than the pros. But I know there are strong opinions the other way; so I think we'll probably need a new thread for this discussion.

First of all, I'd just like to point out, based on many years of experience, that no solution will be good. There will always be those who disagree with it. So I will add my two cents fully aware that the solution is not perfect.


I think, at the very beginning, staff should fill the roles of Masters on both sides. NPCs do take away a lot of the benefits in RP, yes, but they are the only way to ensure fairness. Those who wish the "full experience" can simply wait until PCs have taken over the necessary roles, which should not take long if staff really devotes time to their duties as storytellers.

Balance requires a price. If you want to be among the first PC Jedi or Sith, then you run the risk of missing out on a lot of the rather awesome training sessions or the relationship and bond which is formed between two focused characters functioning as master and apprentice. If you want that? Just wait. Be patient. Don't aim to be a Jedi or Sith from the get-go. I think that balances things out.

I'm all for staff-run Masters from the start. Someone has to fill that role until players step up to the plate.

After all, isn't a venerable, old master, teaching a youngling the basics, then tossing him out on his own to forge his destiny the core of Star Wars?

While death and Force ghosts may not be the best solution, I would not be opposed to seeing those NPCs come back from time to time to offer advice, plots, or to steer PCs in the right direction. Just in case the Jedi start kicking puppies.

I think that's very workable, and it may be our best solution.

As much as I like the idea of having PC Masters to teach and interact with the new fledgling Jedi, There is a reason why we are moving to a new game and timeline.

Ok, well there are several reasons, but one of the main ones that I take away from what I've read is that we need a new start. We need to level the playing field a bit among the playerbase. So I think that staff-run Masters would be the best solution. It's more taxing of course, but ultimately the best solution. After a certain time period, they go away. Leaving the next generation to serve/domiate the Galaxy.

Forrester wrote:

Ok, well there are several reasons, but one of the main ones that I take away from what I've read is that we need a new start. We need to level the playing field a bit among the playerbase. So I think that staff-run Masters would be the best solution. It's more taxing of course, but ultimately the best solution. After a certain time period, they go away. Leaving the next generation to serve/domiate the Galaxy.

I think the only thing that Gulp has suggested is that 'master' will be a title knights can aspire to after they've trained someone and that someone has completed a trial and become a Jedi Knight. From my understanding, 'master' in DH2 =/= only super powerful members of the Jedi Council. If newly minted Knight A trains Learner B to be a knight and B doesn't pull an Anakin, then Knight A gets to use the title of 'master' though he'd still be pretty low on the totem pole next his NPC superiors.

You are both right.

I think that one of the consensus agreements which is emerging from this thread is that PC Jedi Masters are a good thing, but starting with PC Jedi Masters already at the top of the totem pole would be a bad thing.

The "Masters are those who have trained full-fledged Knights" thing is part of ensuring that future PC Jedi Masters really do give their all to training up the next generation, creating the sort of Jedi-to-Jedi RP that can enrich their role in the theme and story.

My initial opposition to the non-PC Master really relented with the concept of pairing up the learners. I can think of nothing more enjoyable than a pair of Learners being a team that is monitored from a distance by a Master. That more than makes up for the lack of a full time PC Master.

It makes me so happy I actually went 'Squee!' about it.

I have a question, directed towards Staff.


What will be done since the Jedi will be entwined with the Republic, to prevent the Republic from being nothing more than a Jedi Sandbox where if you don't wear robes you're a second class citizen? I only ask this because as seen on EVERY OTHER STAR WARS GAME IN EXISTANCE, when the Jedi are involved in the Republic it usually means the Jedi Only club sign is posted.

I know what you mean. On DH1 we had the issue with the senate.

Checks and balances. I've done my best to structure things so that the Jedi provide checks on the military and senate but have no way to dominate them. If anything, the Republic military -probably- has the most power out of the three groups.

Different basic Jedi dynamic, also.

The Jedi aren't an elite you're inducted into from the cradle.

They're guys you know.

You're Wedge Antilles. He's Luke Skywalker, that farmboy from Tatooine who's the best damn starpilot you ever saw. And sometimes maybe you're jealous of his delusions of grandeur and his mysterious abilities. But probably not, because he's still Luke Skywalker, the guy who saved your life. You saw him crying after the Death Star mission when it sunk in that his old friend Biggs was gone forever. You bought him a lum and told him to cheer up, you were all dead anyway.

Now he wears robes, sure. But if he sticks his nose up and won't drink some lum with his old friends, maybe it's time to smack him upside the head with a holopad.

After reading this....Meh.

A bit disheartening I guess. I mean, when I, and probably thousand others think about STAR WARS we think about Jedi foremost. The story is centeric on the epic battles with Jedi.

Older fellows my also think of Smugglers, Princesses, Dark Forces, Space Battles, but ultimately we all think:

Jedi.

The why is simple, people like Jedi. Who wouldn't?! They are pretty damn neat.

Now I have to ask: The staff have sat you down at a table (the game), they are cooking something, you can smell it (the setting). The divine smell! God you're mouthwatering.

It's done, the food is ready. It's a delicious delcious cake (Jedi). Chocolate, single candle. You can't wait to ea--NO. They move the cake away from your grasping hands, NO CAKE FOR YOU.

But why? Have you done something wrong, did you offend in some way? You don't remember anything! You reach for that cake again.

NO CAKE FOR YOU! They say, pulling away farther. You give in, what must you do to eat this delicious heavenly cake?!

They slip you a form. A pen.

"To make sure you'll eat this cake just right, to our standards. That way we know this cake will be eaten by quality."

It's a good point.

I've always been fond of the Jedi. I know some people don't like it... but well-played Jedi are _awesome_.

But what do you do?

Sanguine: Do you think that there is a problem with having staff-run NPCs as Jedi at the start? Or do you just feel that having an arbitrary limit is what's disheartening?

I know on DH1... it was very... "Oh, you're FS? OK! JEDITIME!" or if not "SITHTIME!" and I think a lot of people have complaints about how the Jedi were played, etc. So that may color some of the reactions of "Let's keep the Jedi limited and special!"

But what do you think we should do?

One thing that bears repeating... if Gulp hasn't repeated it yet: There will be no "Force Sensitive" special like in DH1. If you are a character on the MUSH... you can receive Jedi Training. (I assume there will be IC info released on this, like... WHY this is so, etc. It's not midichlorians.)

So while there is talk about "6 jedi" or whatever... that's not something that is settled and I'm definitely up for hearing ideas of what ways to make Jedi more interesting and still special. (Is it still cool if _everyone_ was a Jedi? I think... maybe... but not as special as if I was the only Jedi.)

So what should we do?

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but not as special as if I was the only Jedi

Jedi shouldn't be a crown you can lord over others. Looking at it that way is the first step towards bad behavior.

Have a problem with how a player is playing a Jedi? Give him some hints, material to go off of.

Still doing it? Then do play with him. No one is forcing you to interact with him.

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Or do you just feel that having an arbitrary limit is what's disheartening?

This is a bad idea all around. There are more Jedi than you could possibly have players.

The 'everyone can be a force user right off the bat if they want' route doesn't work though. Not only does it erode the concept of Jedi when everyone goes 'I'm a Jedi!' and then they start behaving evilly but it also erodes the special nature of the force users. They represent an elite. As for a small group being able to get a massive advantage, it is an advantage but they have to spend levels on force user skills that I will be spending on things like, say, leadership skills. Yes, they are very elite, but they can't dodge a turbolaser.

Foghorn: I disagree.

Say you are a Jedi Knight. Well, first of all, you can't SAY you're a Jedi Knight because that's a restricted title that's awarded for IC reasons. but say you're a Jedi Trainee.

Fine. But you have code that defines your powers. You can act all amazing... but you're going to get hit and not do a great job in being "uber."

If PCs are all saying "I'm a Jedi!" and then killing little children, that's an IC problem... that will probably be addressed by other PCs saying "Uh... no you're not." Or the guards saying "Jedi my ass" and opening fire.

But to have a concept that says you WANT to be a Jedi? Why the heck not?

FoghornLeghorn wrote:

The 'everyone can be a force user right off the bat if they want' route doesn't work though.

But it does work.

You still want to be the "special princess"? Alright, sure. I can bite.

Lancelot was "special". There were a lot of knights around regardless. He wasn't special because he was a knight, he was special because of his deeds.

I believe that if Jedi/Sith are drawn from the other character types, rather than constituted as a destined-from-birth special caste, their accessibility will increase and their value--as RP partners, as a character goal, etcetera--will also increase.

Going on past experience Firehawk, I disagree. If the choice is between slapping down a host of characters or trying to be everyone's buddy, I am willing to bet the admin will try to be everyone's buddy. It is human nature for most people. So I'd rather limit the need for the admins to make those decisions rather than let the Jedi decline into mediocracy.

As it is on DH1, force sensitivity is so common it is a joke. To the point where 'X is a force user!' is now just '*yawn* Oh really, I'm shocked. That is the third this week'. Finding out someone isn't a force user is more novel these days. Retaining a ratio so they remain an elite preserves the star wars feel, and stops everything being about force play. Luke, Darth Vader, Palpatine, Obi Wan and Yoda. The chaps we see use the force in the movies. Han Solo, Leia, Chewbacca, Jabba, Lando Calrissian, General Dodonna, C3-P0, R2D2, Boba Fett, Ozzel, Piett....all of them don't use the force. The list can go on.

Oh and for the record, I don't want to be a force user at all. I don't want to be a 'Special Princess' Jedi or what have you.

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Jedi decline into mediocracy

Yeah, so much better for 90% of the other character types to go "into mediocracy".

I can't even begin to go into how flawed the logic of "Limiting them will make them special!" is.

Hans Solo had no Jedi ability. He was cool. There are thousands if not millions of smugglers. More than Jedi by far.

He was no less cool. His attitude and story were cool. This is what made him unique.