Jedi Knights

That's right Paradox, I think there will always be staff at the top of the Jedi Order. The same way there will be staff in control of the Sith Prince. To keep an eye on everything and also to be the "quest givers" so to speak.

Do you guys think it's really important to have PC-active Jedi Factions right away?

The Jedi Order has an "initiate" rank that has no training or anything, just a "adheres to the beliefs" type of thing. Being an initiate is no big deal, it's just a mindset and a way of life.

Is there a real downside to not having any Jedi Learners or Jedi Knights at the start? Or, at least, no PC/heavily active NPCs?

Would it be acceptable if the Jedi Knights that you saw were NPCs that came out once in a while, and then left to the background?

Check the release again and you see the "training" is a little bit of "isolation" but more of the person going and "doing things" stopping that pirate hostage taker in the example that was posted.

Having a more "involved in the world" type RP and advancement for characters who want to be Jedi will help, won't it? (Since it's not strictly relying on Master->Learner RP)

I think it's a question of where serious commitment will lead to the most rewards for the game. The questgivers-as-teachers setup you outline, with 3 or so questgivers in a position to do that for an extended period -- it sounds workable if well-managed, but I'd be interested in hearing more.

Done properly, it would probably raise fewer concerns/set less of a precedent than negative XP. I imagine it would probably require a minimum of 3 hours of time per NPC per week. Each could probably train 1 or 2 PCs; 3 PCs would be excessive for one trainer, but 2 might be ideal in terms of setting up an RP-advancing dynamic. Having an NPC master is less interesting than having a PC master, but having a PC "brother apprentice" could go a long way toward enriching each Jedi's experience.

The major cost seems to be a high degree of time commitment required, as well as the usual issues of making sure that NPCs don't morph into alts. Can we make the solution more demon-free? is there a better one?

And while the alive and active in the world and being watched is a wonderful route which will take massive pressures off the system, at the same time are we running a game about PCs or about PCs watching the NPCs do things? Everything I've read indicates that this is about PCs being heroes, we've had the problems before of NPCs running the gambit be it with Army combat or the occassional Staff-alt showing up to smoke people.

So yes, I do believe it is important to incorporate the PC population in a reasonable but as full and effective manner as possible. Otherwise, we're simply annoyances playing in your staff sandbox.

Gulp: 2-3 hours is a very conservative estimate I would believe. The pairing of apprentices is a very appealing route as that provides PC Interaction and accountability. With that, the 2-3 hours is very possible but if you have individuals that are being trained as individuals it would take 2 hours per. That's one scene a week... pretty skimpy for that 'Jedi experience' it sounds like you want.

> Do you guys think it's really important to have PC-active Jedi Factions right away?

I'm not sure, Firehawk. I'd like to see more discussion of the benefits to the game (and drawbacks) of starting right off the bat with PC Jedi. We should definitely have PC Jedi fairly early on, but whether we should start with preexisting Jedi or not, that's a good question, and one I'm not yet certain of the answer to.

Paradox raises a good point, though I'm not sure whether either one -- starting with Jedi PCs vs raising up PCs to play Jedi -- is necessarily taking the spotlight off the heroes.

Yeah, I see what you're saying, Paradox.

But I think the idea is more... they show up from time to time to show that there ARE Jedi in the world. But don't take a real active role in TPs or day to day RP.

Paradox, Foghorn, and others have already kinda raised the point, though: If staff assigns Players A B and C to the Jedi Knight status? The questions that will be raised will be rather upset, I think.

Also? I think the questions not raised (but muttered about) would be destructive to the game's soul.

Is there any way to raise a PC to Jedi Knight that wouldn't raise the ire of people?

I'm not endorsing having 'start off' Jedis perse, but I would expect within the first month to see some initiates starting to creep up for both sides. And NPC Jedi showing up? Anytime you use a NPC to fill a role you have taken that potential role from a PC. That's bad news.

Probably it's fair to point out that the first post on the Jedi thread showcases the kind of selection process for Jedi we'd like to see. Rittenhaus's progression closer and closer to Jedi Knight status is meant to reflect the kind of progression we'd like Jedi-oriented PCs to go through.

Do we need PCs to be playing the Raischle Witter and Elgon Kokuun type roles? They basically just talk about how awesome Rittenhaus is and how he needs to be tested more.

In the current game staff had little to do with raising PCs to become Jedi Knights (except where Jedi Masters were also staff), and there was still ire about it. I don't think it's avoidable so long as it is a limited role.

Probably not.

But if we have inordinate amount of waiting for things to develop people are going to lose their excitement. I'm not saying instant gratification, but if someone is trying to do the 'right thing' for 6 months and goes unnoticed because there isnt' enough activity at the top of the Order you better believe that person is going to get discouraged and rightfully so. There has to be that balance. Are PCs needed to observe? No. But uhm... who is going to observe? And how? In an IC fashion?

Maybe a Jedi isn't going to be a war hero, what about that common hero. That poor kid who shares their food with the other poor kids in the neighborhood? Or the woman who helps the old lady in the next door apartment who has no family. They are heroes too doing the right thing. It comes back to that 'I have to get noticed so here I go being a huge ham to get attention.'

To answer some earlier questions that got lost in the “starting status” discussion:

Yes, the Jedi are very integrated into the Republic and were used early on to provide a system of checks and balances. Yes, the Jedi get to appoint of member of High Command--- so there will be a Jedi military advisor. The Jedi get to appoint two senate seats. Note that these appointments don't have to be members of the Jedi Order.

I should also comment that staff (and most players for that matter) are generally very suspicious of PC grandstanding for the very reasons that Paradox mentioned. This is one area where proper TP planning and organization can come into play--- you set up very hard moral choices to see who the real heroes are.

And it comes back around to the issue, T, of whom gets these TPs? Thsoe who have proven themselves as assets? So the elite? It's all circular that ends up pretty much at the same point, someone on staff making a decision as to who does and doesn't get something or relying on NPCs to direct and we're all just invading the sandbox. We need to work to find a way to break that cycle and make things as much as possible about the PCs without them being attention whoring hams.

You don't target these TPs at specific people and you dont make a choice after just one or two TPs if you are wise.

Who "gets" the TPs that I run? The people who are online when I'm able to run it. The nice thing about having a lot of staff members is that you can cover a lot of timezones as long as we force them to run plots regularly.

Nobody is going to get to snap up the plum Jedi spots, whether they've been playing since 2007 or started yesterday.

That's the entire purpose of insisting that a player's RPed actions contribute to whether they can get Jedi training/Sith training. It doesn't matter if I personally think a player is a stellar RPer with a beautiful soul and wonderful activity levels; that player, even if they're my favorite person in the world, gets nothing until they have first demonstrated IC heroism in some visible-to-everyone, cinematic way.

They shouldn't be hamming it up, certainly, but a Jedi -must- be able to RP being visibly, honestly good, so Jedi should be selected from people who can demonstrate that).

On a separate but related note, I think that T raises an interesting possibility for discussion.

Really a good conversation going here on how to handle Force PCs for the next incarnation of DH. Just some of my own thoughts here. If we have 40 players and there's only 20% Jedi/Sith (which is fine by me) that means only 8 force characters will be available out of the gate. Theoretically it would be 4 LS and 4 DS. Breaking it down futher it could be something like:

1 Jedi Knight
3 Jedi Apprentices

1 Sith Knight
3 Sith Apprentices

My suggestion for the two knights would be equivlant to running for public office. People type up their PC background and OOC desires for the game anamously and then the rest of the players vote on it all democratic like. Keeping those who apply as unknown makes it less likely people can vote for friends or vote against enemies. Simply the best application wins.

As for the apprentices perhaps it should be based upon a lotto. Players buy lotto tickets with special points and the game randomly chooses six winners from the pool. If lvl 60 gets 60 special points and lvl 10 gets 10 special points, yes its more likely the oldie will be a Force PC, but there's still a chance that the lvl 10 player could win. Also, the lvl 60 player has to be willing to risk all 60 points to get 6 tickets knowing they might not get their ticket drawn where the lvl 10 buys 1 ticket and wins.

Since characters get two classes each lvl, the apprentices could be Apprentice/Class from the get go. The knights would probably be Knight/Class. I suppose we could start them at lvl 10 with an XP deficit. Voting on applications for this extra start would make it less likely for supposed staff abuse/favoritism.

Also I would like to suggest a clause that if you play a force PC that dies, you cannot play another force character for X amount of time. Perhaps 6 months? I know at DH I was very furstrated when one PC who was trying to kill me retired their character and then a week later was on my side of the Force and promoted over me immediately just because they had more levels from rollover than what I could acquire from RP. Also letting people take turns at being able to use the force is only fair.

If we lock out new players from ever being able to use the Force then we'll have a harder time attracting more players. I know most games I looked at the Force was something that was unattainable. Hence I never joined. In fact I still have never used a lightsaber at any MU and my first force character was here at DH. This just shows how hard it is to be a Force user at any game. Part of making DH2 more attractive (e.gulp. "The Best MUSH Available") is making it easier for someone off the street to be Jedi/Sith than the rest of the games available out there.

Haibane, you make some very good points. I think some kind of limitation to prevent people from "hogging" force spots over and over would be a very good idea. It would promote RP diversity (playing Jedi over and over is not nearly as interesting as mixing it up a bit).

Similarly, it's a good idea to make force characters available enough that any good RPer can reasonably aspire to get there. The key is to strike a balance, so that the force characters are both special and attainable with effort.

Kinda a crazy idea, Haibane... but one that is potentially great. Of course, it depends on how people react.

I think lots of people may like it, but what if the "popular kids" told all their friends which to vote for? (ie: them)

There IS potential for abuse, but I think the idea is cool.

As for Special Points buying "lotto" tickets, you can always limit it to only 3 "tickets" so the oldbies don't have a huge chance of being better. IF such a system was implemented (I'm interested to see what others think about the idea as a whole, with limits or without.)

Take the last TP I ran on Kuat as an example. It was an open scheduled TP that had around 18 players taking part. The moral choice was that someone must be willing to die to save millions. No escapes allowed, no ways out, who was willing to step into their character's shoes and make that choice?

No stats were required. There were no +checks or rolls involved. It came down to a single choice made by the players.

Now, in this instance I had an NPC prepared to step in and take the bullet at the last moment. The two PCs who volunteered (not knowing of the NPC's pending interference) were rewarded with massive reputation boosts. Had no one made the choice? No NPC would have appeared and millions would have died. Next time? I make no promises of dues ex machina.

This is the kind of TP I would set up and the kind of choices I would look for. Is the player willing to sacrifice his character's beauty? What about reputation? Will he or she throw away their stuff? Are they willing to die? Why is he or she willing to make that sacrifice?

Sometimes the choice will be made and nothing will happen to the character. Most of the time they have to live with their choice.

Taking what T mentioned a little further, here's an idea I'd be interested in floating.

On another thread, rcrantz proposed having a number of "ready to roll" quests, where they become visible to players, players can choose to "activate" them and start playing them, and they can bear fruit in RP.

It might be interesting and effective to design quests with "moral choices" in mind. Not that that would be the only way to earn your hero/villain credentials; but it would be one very useful component.

You push the old lady in front of the speeder tank so that her son can inherit, and you take his money for it. You get the resistance leader to talk by promising to reunite him with his family, and once he talks, you wheel in their mutilated corpses, then shoot him. You are two steps closer to earning Sith credentials.

Thoughts? Pros/cons?

That sounds great T. So when you have 7 players all trying to take the bullet and be the hero what then? Because hey, if I get to be the hero maybe I get to be a Jedi. I'm not saying it's a bad idea by any means, I'm just pointing out the potential abuses that are present in such a system.

Sometimes, when you take the bullet, you just die.

If you're playing a character that heroic, then he might just die. Or he might survive and be well on the way to becomng a Jedi. If the risks are real, so is the heroism.

Edit: To make the risks real without any risk of unfairness/singling people out, we could always make it truly random.

Slight tangent (will give it its own thread if need be), but a cool thought occurred to me.

Imagine the Death Star run, if all the X-Wing pilots were PCs with 6 months or more of story behind each one.

What a climax to their stories.

Perhaps a simpler route would be during CG, there's just a 'interested in Jedi/Sith' that you choose yes/no. THen the staff NPCs know who to watch for. I'm obviously adamantely against special TPs for people, but if staff have a TP going on, they know which players to maybe see and throw that dilema at during the stride of the TP, even if it's subtle.

You could have a TP of a raid on a Sith production facility and simply throw in a snippet about a nearby kid, dirty and downtrodden looking hungry while digging through trash. Nothign to do with the TP but a chance to show one's true spirit.

Potential abuses of a democratic process aside, I would not mind seeing some sort of vote or player survey as to who we'd want to see as a Jedi/Sith leader (be it off the bat, or down the line), either by quality of their RP, or their ability to lead a faction. I believe T's already done something to that equivalent, but this time, more specific to the Force side of things.

While it shouldn't be a the primary source of final decisions, it could hold some weight if one of those people applied for the role.

Really like what is being discussed here. I do have one point to make on the TPs for Jedi though.

In DH1 there were those types of TPs. Regular non-FS players would see an event and go join in. Many of these players would then find out that the event was for the FS types, get discouraged, stop going and feel left out. This then became a backlash...if folks even thought it was for the FS type then they just wouldn't go.

The feeling was for the non-FS was pretty much: No matter what I do, it will be the FS characters that are the hero's and my actions will either be ignored or minimized so not going to do it.

I was thinking that then these FS TPs be identified as just that. But then you already are turning off folks before it begins....so that isn't good. I really don't know what the answer to this is. Just remember, not every one wants to be FS but vast majority of folks want to go out and have fun.

Well I would hope that if we adopted a sort of mentailty ilke I mentioned up above, then those 'FS' plots wouldn't be FS plotsin the least. It'd simply be people being people during the course of normal TPs.