Jedi Knights

Yep. So characters can be special without needing force powers (thanks for making my point for me there!). The Jedi are a special group and one with an important thematic role. I'd honestly love to hear how 'Anyone who wants to be one can' will make them special. It is just the situation we have now essentially.

We've tried 'Everyone can be force sensitive if they want'. It hasn't worked. The limited Jedi has some issues too (I'm not denying that), in terms of admin making value judgements and promoting only their friends. Though if the admin are going to engage in nepotism, then this is all an exercise in futility in the first place. (Yes, I'm aware we already have the accusations of it. If I see it at the new place, I walk. Going to give them the benefit of the doubt though)

Anyway, as fun as engaging in WORA trolling is, count me out. (Though kudos for getting staff to go along with it)

FoghornLeghorn wrote:

I'd honestly love to hear how 'Anyone who wants to be one can' will make them special. It is just the situation we have now essentially.

Whoa.

It's not trolling if it makes sense, and it does.

Also, this REALLY needs repeating: Everyone on DH2 can become Jedi. EVERYONE.

But not everyone will. But it's possible.

There is a big gap between everyone being able to enter the lotto and everyone being a lotto millionaire.

Exactly, but that's the point, I think, that Sanguine is going for.

Let people enter the lotto! Let them have the ability to become Jedi... but unlike the lotto, it's not random. Through their actions, they can become Jedi by doing the things that attract the attention of the Jedi Masters.

I think that was the "idea" of DH1, but it turned into players training people randomly, etc.

Quote :

I'd honestly love to hear how 'Anyone who wants to be one can' will make them special.

How about an entire game?

I have read this thread and find many of the arguments both valid and interesting. Here is what I see as a problem. How is the Jedi candidate going to be selected? Is this going to be a popularity contest by the few who get to be masters out the gate? How are those individuals selected? What is the definition of Jedi? I know on DH1 some individuals seemed to be more 'jedi like' than others but never attained such titles, while others acted more like sith but seemed to get training and the green light. Is DH2 going to continue the moral relativistic approach of I can kill millions of people without anger filled intent and still be considered good? I think that really getting a discussion of what makes a good jedi will solve a lot of the problems here.

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no death, there is the Force.

In the EU Luke re-wrote it as follows:

Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.
Jedi use their powers to defend and to protect.
Jedi respect all life, in any form.
Jedi serve others rather than ruling over them, for the good of the galaxy.
Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training.

Jedi are supposed to be the guardians of the galaxy and they should act as such. Inspiring and defending peace throughout the galaxy. This definition should also be discussed for Sith as well so as there is clarity.

What I don't want to see is a jedi prospect having the wrong idea about what it is to be a Jedi and is ousted because of that or even worse, IC Jedi doesn't like prospect OOC so prospect never gets the chance when they qualify. I think it lends to the idea of favoritism whether valid or perceived.

Additionally, if the classes are balanced well enough, being a non-jedi is just as viable as a force user so it will all work out in the wash and there really doesn't need to be restrictions per say.

My problem with EU/prequel Jedi morality is that it is essentially arrogant hypocrisy. Consider the prequel Jedi Order's opinion that the best way to make sure Anakin grows up zen and calm is to leave his mother in life-threatening slavery on a border planet while lecturing him on the need to ignore family ties.

Either the Jedi religion is based quite strictly on the varieties of Buddhism that gave rise to the samurai -- in which case a Jedi's prime concern should be his personal honor, nothing more nor less -- or they're an order of "guardians," in which case their code of honor can't afford the luxury of absolute egocentrism.

The samurai angle is attractive, and we can make the case that it's what Obi-wan Kenobi represents ... but is it really what Luke Skywalker represents? As the plot of ESB indicates, Yoda and Obi-wan try to stop Luke from sticking his neck out for his friends -- but he does, and that is the only reason why they escape the Empire, and in turn, the only reason why Han Solo is able to lead the attack on the second Death Star's shield generator, and why Lando Calrissian is able to lead the fighters the Battle of Endor. Only by rejecting the Obi-wan values (whatever they represent exactly), going to Bespin, refusing to kill his own father, etc, is Luke able to overcome the power of the Dark Side. Clearly the plot of the story has rewarded Luke's defiance to the old Jedi ways; so perhaps those ways, with their reliance on 'a certain point of view' and their deceptive machinations, are wrong.

But there are other paradigms for an order of guardians to follow. I don't have a copy of the mission statement of the Hospitalers of St John (the Knights of Malta), but they were originally founded to "serve our lords the poor and our lords the sick," and did so by establishing granaries, hospitals, and way-houses to protect travelers and pilgrims. Later on, to protect travelers from banditry, they created an increasingly powerful military arm (1150-1800), but they maintained hospitals pretty much nonstop since around 1100 and still do. I don't believe they achieved the record they did by focusing on peace, knowledge, and serenity -- probably more by focusing on archaic notions of good and evil, responsibility, and duty.

I think we'll probably get a more heroic Jedi if they are focused on being responsible rather than on being serene.

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I recognize that the previous half of the post only really speculated on creeds and worldviews for the Jedi, whereas Bogey's post focused primarily on the selection mechanism.

Selection of Jedi is going to be pretty simple.

Nobody gets to be a master out of the gate. Nobody gets to start as a Jedi. The first few months of the game will give each character ample opportunity to make a name. At some suitable point, we'll start having the Jedi NPCs invite PCs to train under them (in pairs; the focus of Jedi training is not going to be lectures from your master, but agon over the meaning and duty of the Jedi with your fellow apprentice, who is simultaneously your ally, your rival, and your watcher who will alert the masters to any hints of the Dark Side).

The Sith will function very similarly, except that paired rivals will NOT be allies except in the most formal sense. In the Sith pair, the winner is the one who proves he/she is "stronger" -- more cruel, more vicious, more effective, more driven, better accessories, blacker boots.

Let's not forget the eyeliner and stylish, tribal tattoos.


I think the most important thing is to create a proper history and doctrine for the Jedi Order brought about by Luke Skywalker. Which of his teachings is he going to carry over? Have his struggles against the remnants of the Empire made him a bitter, old master who thinks it's a-ok to not help your friends in order to complete your training? Or has he seen the wonders of the universe and encourages his pupils to respect all life, no matter how small, and draw a lightsaber only in defense?

Masters, dead and living NPCs, need to be fleshed out. What did they teach? What were their morals like? A rich backbone of history for younger Jedi to draw inspiration from, as the whole laser sword and mystical powers act is part of the core of Star Wars.


As for favoritism, it will exist in some extent. Staff-run NPC masters will have to choose apprentices from the playerbase. There's no way to help that - people will have favorites, either based on attitude or quality of RP. And, then those people will ultimately have to chose others, and likely pick those that complement their own style of play. I haven't really seen a huge amount of favoritism in DH1 in that regard. Force Sensitives were usually given some IC and OOC offer to join a particular path, if they were so interested.

Luke Skywalker died not particularly long after the Battle of Endor.

He had enough time to found the New Jedi Order before he croaked, unless you've got some new or other DH2 history that hasn't been shared yet.

He did, certainly. He got it started and his sacrifice kind of was the ultimate example.

If Luke died shortly after the Battle of Endor then who was left to form a Jedi order at all?

With the short time available I doubt Leia could have learned enough to be the new Order figurehead. I also imagine that a pretty strong backbone would be necessary to revive an essentially dead religion.

This doesn't make sense to me -- unless the answer is: 'We have it figured, we haven't told you the entire story, you'll see'.

'not particularly long after,' but not 'shortly after'

He had a good run, but he died in his late thirties or early forties.